thierry henry
International Coach
Very interesting how Vettori featured quite prominently in this thread. Very interesting.
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Cricket's most over rated players
- Thread starter Bahnz
- Start date
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
I should have added "as an opener" when I made my initial post. I make that comment based on a number of observations of CW members' thoughts on Trumper.
1. In drafts he is often selected as an opener where he played the majority of his innings yet only averaged 33.
2. He was one of only two Pre WWI players to be voted into the Top 50 batsmen poll in 2022, coming in almost 20 spots ahead of the other (Clem Hill).
3. Ranji didn't get a mention in the above poll
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Every old player
capt_Luffy
International Regular
I will go by points (everything is just my opinion) :
1. As Trumper played more than half his matches as an opener, he gets drafted as one. Here we should take three things to note, his opening average was still among the best of his time, he went to open post his peak when he was already ill and could really be adjusted to be 43-44.
2. Trumper's reputation is a different class to Hill (I believe @peterhrt have him in his Top 10 batsman) as are his numbers in the middle order. His SR also I think is a big factor in his favour.
3. I use a rule to rank only post 1900 players, hence Grace, Ranji and Shrewsbury don't count. Else I believe he would be ranked in my Top 20 based on the innovations he brought and his excellent record in Test and the mind boggling 57 average in FC.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
Not true, but keep trying.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
While I am sympathetic to adjustments, even quite big ones, for pre-WWI players, adding ten to someone's average because 'they were past their peak' is way out in the realms of wishful thinking.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
That, we gotta do the best we can.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
For what it's worth;
Average Batting average in the 1910s: 23.87
Average Batting average in the 2010s: 32.37
Percentage of increase of batting average: 35.61%
Adjusted opening average of Victor Trumper: 44.78
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Now you're just being stupid. If you had two brain cells to rub together you'd realise that the aggregate average is... an aggregate, and doesn't necessarily bear on individual players. Trumper isn't suddenly better because Barnes was bowling out weak SA sides for fun, depressing the aggregate average.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
Not even what I was talking about. More the “he only opened past his peak and when he was already sick” part.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
Before Trumper and Hill, the best Australian batsman was "drum rolls" Joe Darling. He averaged 28. Other top Australian batsmen before them; Syd Gregory, Billy Murdock, Alick Bannerman, anyone who played 20-25 matches, all averaged high 20s to low 30s. Grace ended up averaging 32, Shrewsbury 35; both were really good for that period. CB Fry, Plum Warner, Tom Hayward, it just goes on. Only batsmen to average 40+, Charlie Bannerman had a low 20s FC average, Stanley Jackson had one mid 30s and Ranji played only 15 matches. If the average back then came down due to SA being minnows, that is also true now with WI, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Ireland and Afghanistan. It's by far a very logical way to adjust averages by eras.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
That thing was kinda shady I admit, although I believe he would had done much better in his peak.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
When do you think his peak was lol… He was constantly opening throughout his career.
Unless you think his peak was magically in the 1899 Ashes and the 1909 Ashes and nowhere else?
SillyCowCorner1
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capt_Luffy
International Regular
YESSSSS.
No, on a series note, you are right. That was a bad reasoning, should just stick with my original points.
shortpitched713
International Captain
There is no point in adjusting up Trumper's stats as an opening batsman. His better stats were as a middle order bat, and this was in a time where the new ball wasn't quite as deadly in comparison to the old ball anyway.
Whether or not he could be an opener of the highest quality, especially in a sense of facing fast, dangerous new ball bowling, in the context we currently consider Specialist opening is little more than speculation.
His actual record on it's own would indicate he was a rather prolific middle order bat for his time. That should be enough, rather than trying to shoehorn him in to a list of ATG openers.
capt_Luffy
International Regular
You know what, I agree with you (still in my ATG Australia XI as an opener though)
shortpitched713
International Captain
DWTA.
Even though I don't think Trumper is a good case to take such massive liberties, I do generally think that all run scoring (and wicket taking) achievements should be taken with respect to the context of their time.
Outliers, are of course still outliers, but they should be in our mind in all eras, not just specific to the minnows of yore.
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
Ahead of Lawry, Simpson, Hayden, Morris et al?
capt_Luffy
International Regular
Yep. Alongside one of them; I need Trumper in the team.