Chris Read another chance?

[marc71178]

Maybe people underplay the mistakes he makes because none have mattered in the slightest so far?

If only that were true.

 

[Richard]

and you think jones is a better batsman than flintoff?

Hasn't been in the last 9 months, of course - but has been in the last 3 games.
My point was that if Flintoff keeps getting-out cheaply and Jones scoring, it might be worthwile thinking about promoting Jones ahead of him... not to be worried about for a while of course.

 

[Richard]

Long enough to make the 5th day, making the conditions for the new man much more favourable.

And for all we know Kallis could have been brought-in instead of Boje and played far better, and the match could have been an easy draw.
Until someone drops someone who goes on to play a significant innings you can't really say a drop mattered much - it's just a "might have".

 

[Richard]

Not 100% true. The Gibbs drop should have brought in a new batsman who had just spent best part of 2 days in the field, which is a very different proposition to coming in an hour and a bit into the next morning. Also the new batsman would have to have faced a newer ball than he eventually did. OK, no-one can say for certain things would have panned out differently, but you can't rule it out either.

That's the point - because there's so much "might" you can't really say it was a significant drop.

 

[tooextracool]

Hasn't been in the last 9 months, of course - but has been in the last 3 games.
My point was that if Flintoff keeps getting-out cheaply and Jones scoring, it might be worthwile thinking about promoting Jones ahead of him... not to be worried about for a while of course.

have you been watching any of the cricket recently richard? its stupid posts like this that confirm to me that you simply just read the scorecards and first chance averages and make your opinions.
jones scored 2 in the first game, while flintoff scored 35, good deduction there sherlock.
in the next test 1st inning jones dismissal was an absolute disgrace. even harbhajan singh would be laughing at how someone could be so stupid. how anyone could possibly play that many stupid strokes and still get away with it was fortunate enough, how he managed to keep playing it until he got out made it even more stupid. yes flintoffs dismissal was poor, but at least he didnt persist with playing the same shot over and over again.
and of course in the 2nd inning, flintoff might have scored less(just 13 runs less really) and certainly it was far more mature and responsible than geraint jones innings was and was played under pressure, when england needed a big partnership, unlike jones' inning.
it was only in the 3rd test that jones actually batted somewhat more responsibly and better than flintoff, but really to say that hes better based on one test would be stupid, but knowing you thats precisely what youd say.

 

[marc71178]

And for all we know Kallis could have been brought-in instead of Boje and played far better, and the match could have been an easy draw.

Anyone coming in at the end of a day when the team is batting to save a game against a fired-up team with the momentum behind them is not going to have it easy.

And a drop in that sort of situation does make a huge difference seeing as there's a finite time to take 10 wickets, and that drop cost a fair segment of time.

 

[Richard]

have you been watching any of the cricket recently richard? its stupid posts like this that confirm to me that you simply just read the scorecards and first chance averages and make your opinions.
jones scored 2 in the first game, while flintoff scored 35, good deduction there sherlock.
in the next test 1st inning jones dismissal was an absolute disgrace. even harbhajan singh would be laughing at how someone could be so stupid. how anyone could possibly play that many stupid strokes and still get away with it was fortunate enough, how he managed to keep playing it until he got out made it even more stupid. yes flintoffs dismissal was poor, but at least he didnt persist with playing the same shot over and over again.
and of course in the 2nd inning, flintoff might have scored less(just 13 runs less really) and certainly it was far more mature and responsible than geraint jones innings was and was played under pressure, when england needed a big partnership, unlike jones' inning.
it was only in the 3rd test that jones actually batted somewhat more responsibly and better than flintoff, but really to say that hes better based on one test would be stupid, but knowing you thats precisely what youd say.

If you really think Flintoff has batted better than Jones this series I'll let you stay thinking that.

 

[Richard]

Anyone coming in at the end of a day when the team is batting to save a game against a fired-up team with the momentum behind them is not going to have it easy.

And a drop in that sort of situation does make a huge difference seeing as there's a finite time to take 10 wickets, and that drop cost a fair segment of time.

And because that player didn't take much more than another hour to get out again it really doesn't matter that much.
It's all "ifs", I'm afraid - the whole "he's not going to find it easy" thing is based on guesses that you have repeatedly derided me for.
The drop might have cost England the game, it might have helped them get closer to the victory than otherwise. We don't know and he can't really be criticised that much for it.

 

[marc71178]

It was a key moment in the whole game and he dropped the catch.

An early wicket in that situation and the pressure builds.

 

[Richard]

Of course it does.
Because it's all about pressure and the stuff in the mind and nothing to do with the basic physical fact that you need to bat for long periods, or prevent from doing so. And Gibbs didn't make any real contribution to saving that Test-match.
And I might add, of course, that an early wicket happened anyway.
It most certainly was not a key moment in the game.

 

[marc71178]

Gibbs batted for over 2 hours, having been dropped in the 4th over.

Of course that made no effort towards saving the game did it?

I know an early wicket happened, but had 2 early wickets happened the task the next morning is a hell of a lot easier (and like I say with the confidence and the pressure growing who's to say they'd have only got the 2 overnight - especially bearing in mind the bowler who it was dropped off is very much a confidence bowler and an early wicket certainly boosts that)

You certainly have your spade out today, that's for sure.

 

[Richard]

Sorry, whatever spin you put on it (and I'll not deny I slightly underestimated the time Gibbs got gifted at the crease) the likely result was still a draw bearing in mind what followed as far as I'm concerned.
I just wonder if you'd feel the same way about the drop were it to have been comitted by Read.

 

[marc71178]

That's it, you've decided you're right, so will continue to say it, because it might come true, even though all evidence points to the contrary.

 

[Richard]

There's no "might come true" about it - the whole thing's in the past now, and it's entirely up to each person to decide whether they think it altered the likely outcome of the match.
Those like you who are such sticklers for selecting the best wicketkeeper at all times will always take it as a chance to do so.

 

[tooextracool]

If you really think Flintoff has batted better than Jones this series I'll let you stay thinking that.

and well done in explaining the stupidity of your claims there. if anyone managed to make an even bigger fool of himself than flintoff did in the first 2 tests it was geraint jones.

 

[marc71178]

Those like you who are such sticklers for selecting the best wicketkeeper at all times will always take it as a chance to do so.

When the lesser keeper drops a chance that potentially costs his side the match (and a 2-0 lead that might well have made the rest of the series a lot more in England's favour - owing to the momentum) - I'd say it's a fairly big drop.

 

[Richard]

and well done in explaining the stupidity of your claims there. if anyone managed to make an even bigger fool of himself than flintoff did in the first 2 tests it was geraint jones.

Whether or not he looked unconvincing on plenty of occasions he scored some runs - at an average of 30.
He might have been unconvincing, but he has certainly not made a fool of himself.

 

[Richard]

When the lesser keeper drops a chance that potentially costs his side the match (and a 2-0 lead that might well have made the rest of the series a lot more in England's favour - owing to the momentum) - I'd say it's a fairly big drop.

And would you say with such vigour it if the better 'keeper had been the one to drop the catch?
And surely you should have noticed that momentum is a non-existant phrase where England-South Africa Tests are concerned? Have the last 6 series taught you nothing?

 

[tooextracool]

Whether or not he looked unconvincing on plenty of occasions he scored some runs - at an average of 30.
He might have been unconvincing, but he has certainly not made a fool of himself.

no he made a fool of himself for his first 2 innings, after that hes managed to somewhat redeem himself. but if anyone had watched the game they would have realised that flintoff performed better than him in the first 3 innings. certainly only a fool would say that hes batted better than flintoff for all of the last 3 tests.

 

[tooextracool]

And would you say wiht such vigour it if the better 'keeper had been the one to drop the catch?
And surely you should have noticed that momentum is a non-existant phrase where England-South Africa Tests are concerned? Have the last 6 series taught you nothing?

except that this time we actually are the more talented team?