sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Why didn't he?
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Bumrah vs Holding - Greater test bowler?
- Thread starter Rob Wesley
- Start date
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Interesting I didn't know that. Only ones I knew were against England.
In 2008 he broke down after the second test. in 2009 he missed the first test due to injury. I don't think either case was workload issues.
Thala_0710
International Vice-Captain
I'd need to check
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
I would say that I most agree with all that you've said.
Only slight advantage that Holding had was that he wasn't as protected when he did play.
And yes Holding did have the better codon, but this is also the bowling era, up there with the 50's.
But yeah, Bumrah is better, and getting closer to greater and will get there.
Still don't like the intentional resting for tests though, certainly not 2 of 5.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
OverratedSanity
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Holding missed a boatload of games in his career too, don't think the durability thing applies here.
I think tours of 3-4 months no longer happens with long gap between tests. Rest days were common until the 1980s. Many bowlers just had one format to play. Situation is vastly different from oder era to now and yet some of us are trying to make comparison about playing 5 tests from odler era to now.
Last bowler of similar quality was Steyn. Steyn did not have 5 tests any time in his career. He did not have even 4 tests single time. I don't recall anyone being too concerned about it. Tours has actually becomes compressed even when comprared to Steyn's days let alone days of 80s with long tours and rest days within ongoing tests. I think it's a non-issue. Comparison would be valid if situation was same as older era.
If Steyn had played 4 tests or Bumrah have played 5 tests even once without producing great output in the same series, I don't think I will rate them even slightly higher despite ticking that box.
I think we are expecting too much here given 3 format era with compressed tour schedules.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Yes especially by the end of his career.
Pakistan tour of Eng in 1987:
Thu, 06 Aug - day 1 - Pakistan 1st innings 297/3 (Javed Miandad 131*, Saleem Malik 64*)
Fri, 07 Aug - day 2 - Pakistan 1st innings 616/6 (Ijaz Ahmed 22*, Saleem Yousuf 6*)
Sat, 08 Aug - day 3 - England 1st innings 144/4 (Mike Gatting 50*, Ian Botham 23*)
Sun, 09 Aug - rest day
Mon, 10 Aug - day 4 - England 2nd innings 95/3 (Chris Broad 26*, Mike Gatting 5*)
Tue, 11 Aug - day 5 - England 2nd innings 315/4 (142 ov) - end of match
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India tour of WI 1983:
Thu, 28 Apr - day 1 - India 1st innings 188/4 (Ravi Shastri 8*, Kapil Dev 3*)
Fri, 29 Apr - day 2 - West Indies 1st innings 23/0 (Gordon Greenidge 7*, Desmond Haynes 14*)
Sat, 30 Apr - day 3 - West Indies 1st innings 301/1 (Gordon Greenidge 154*, Winston Davis 1*)
Sun, 01 May - day 4 - India 2nd innings 0/0 (Sunil Gavaskar 0*, Aunshuman Gaekwad 0*)
Mon, 02 May - rest day
Tue, 03 May - day 5 - India 2nd innings 247/5d (88 ov) - end of match
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I tried to randomly see test schedule in 80s, I am not sure how many tests were played without a rest day back then. That's why comparing 5 tests series may not be apple to apple.
Thu, 06 Aug - day 1 - Pakistan 1st innings 297/3 (Javed Miandad 131*, Saleem Malik 64*)
Fri, 07 Aug - day 2 - Pakistan 1st innings 616/6 (Ijaz Ahmed 22*, Saleem Yousuf 6*)
Sat, 08 Aug - day 3 - England 1st innings 144/4 (Mike Gatting 50*, Ian Botham 23*)
Sun, 09 Aug - rest day
Mon, 10 Aug - day 4 - England 2nd innings 95/3 (Chris Broad 26*, Mike Gatting 5*)
Tue, 11 Aug - day 5 - England 2nd innings 315/4 (142 ov) - end of match
-----------------
India tour of WI 1983:
Thu, 28 Apr - day 1 - India 1st innings 188/4 (Ravi Shastri 8*, Kapil Dev 3*)
Fri, 29 Apr - day 2 - West Indies 1st innings 23/0 (Gordon Greenidge 7*, Desmond Haynes 14*)
Sat, 30 Apr - day 3 - West Indies 1st innings 301/1 (Gordon Greenidge 154*, Winston Davis 1*)
Sun, 01 May - day 4 - India 2nd innings 0/0 (Sunil Gavaskar 0*, Aunshuman Gaekwad 0*)
Mon, 02 May - rest day
Tue, 03 May - day 5 - India 2nd innings 247/5d (88 ov) - end of match
--------------------
I tried to randomly see test schedule in 80s, I am not sure how many tests were played without a rest day back then. That's why comparing 5 tests series may not be apple to apple.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah especially because of who he plays for.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Likely before then.
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Not especially likely though.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
sledger
Spanish_Vicente
Sure. Especially.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This is partly why I did this:
How valuable is that wicket!
Added Bumrah, Cummins, Anderson and Rabada (and refreshed Steyn because he played well past the date I last updated this) # Bowler Wickets Bowling Avg Avg value of wicket Discount Factor 1 Jasprit Bumrah 215 19.49 30.41 64.1% 2 Sydney Barnes 189 16.43 25.02 65.7% 3 George...
www.cricketweb.net
The average of average of batsmen dismissed by Bumrah is quite comparable to those of famous giant killers like Marshall, McGrath and Ambrose. Maybe down to a higher proportion of top order wickets (I haven't looked into that). Or may be the fact that Bumrah hardly plays any minnows.
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kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Excellent work.
Quality wise Bumrah is up there with the Marshall's, McGrath's, Steyn's, Ambrose's etc. He's so very damn special, definitely elite.
With regards to him and Holding, he'll pass him no doubt. But for me when he passes him, it will also be the ones around him in that same tier. Holding, Donald, Lillee, Imran...
But even looking at their upcoming test schedule, WI, South Africa, it only gets easier, heaven knows what his average may look like.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
These types of tables never particularly favors Hadlee, neither especially does pundit nor peer ratings.
Most metrics have him closer to, if not behind Steyn and Ambrose.
Additionally, his one claim of supremacy, no longer looks quite as impressive as it once did. All of which led me to the summation that he is closer to Steyn and Ambrose than he is to Marshall and McGrath.
I know not a single soul will agree, but it's something that's becoming more apparent the more I read.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bro you missed responding to or acknowledging the main point I was making – His quality of wickets is quite high so discount for bowling friendly era doesn't possibly apply; its effect gets cancelled by him playing stronger teams almost exclusively.
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I did not really see Hadlee , but his numbers look great. Looking at it, it seems he was closer to McGrath. I did see McGrath's entire career.
Do you think peer review or pundit's rating not coming that high was due to him playing for NZ? Hypotheticallty, if he was playing for Eng with the same numbers, do you think peer/pundit's rating would have been higher for Hadlee? I know these are hypothetical questions, but since you saw him bowl, what's your take?
I put Marshall and then Hadlee/McGrath togther. Followed by Steyn/Ambrose. I saw only McGrath, Steyn and Ambrose out of these 5.