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Buchanan's awful plan

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
What a plonker Buchanan is, players should only represent the Country of their birth or their parents country of origin (so that Cowdrey, Dexter et al are not considered foreign just because their parents happened to be abroad at the time).
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
What a plonker Buchanan is, players should only represent the Country of their birth or their parents country of origin (so that Cowdrey, Dexter et al are not considered foreign just because their parents happened to be abroad at the time).
Think I'd extend it to allow players to represent countries where they've grown up too. Symonds was born in Brum & adopted by British parents, but is clearly an Australian by upbringing.
 

Chemosit

First Class Debutant
I think this idea would be incredibly damaging to cricket rather than fixing anything. Australia will not dominate for ever. WI were once invincible, now look at them. As mentioned by SST before - help in other ways - development tours coaching etc.

Besides to reiterate Bond21 - I would not pay money to watch Aus A play Aus B + 1 token indian/kiwi/whoever. The cricket would probably be great, but the essence would be flat.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I mean, could you imagine the soul-lessness of international cricket if each country was nothing more than a franchise!
Agreed. Much as I'm in favour of player movement if the player wants, it must never be because a cricket board can "buy out" someone. There must be residence qualifications.
 

howardj

International Coach
Really, though, you do wonder about Buchanan sometimes - seems to say odd things just for the sake of being odd.
Yes.

That's always been my main charge against this man.

He is a deliberately left-field drip.

He clothes his weird ideas in the robes of 'cutting edge thinking'.

In reality, they're just plain weird.
 

Smudge

Hall of Fame Member
We'll take Luke Ronchi thanks. He wouldn't even need to sit out the qualification period, as one of his parents is a Kiwi, I believe.

Also, is it too late for us to borrow Mike Hussey? We'll give him back when he's 45. Honest.
 

Top_Cat

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Well why not? I mean, those who are sufficiently patriotic won't take up the offer anyway and those who aren't should be able to maximise their earning potential and play at the top level if they can. This whole 'they should play for their country of birth' ignores reality; some players who are good enough won't get to and why should guys who want a career in sport be denied a living from it because of some parochial fever? Playing state cricket pays okay but it's risky; if you have a career-threatening knee injury, suddenly the last 10 years you've devoted to cricket (and not in, say, getting a degree) looks wasted.

I mean, the obvious example is someone like Kevin Pietersen. Here's a bloke who, for many reasons, couldn't get a go in SA and moved to England. If he'd been forced to play in SA, for all we know, he could still be playing provincial cricket and not picked for the Test side because his personality is a little brash. How stupid would that be? Don't say it wouldn't happen because I notice a lot of the players from SA playing in England are those who don't quite fit the conservative little mould expected of SA cricketers and could possibly be why they moved.

How about Brad Haddin? Because Gilchrist is in the side and not going anywhere, by the time he's in with a shot for a Test spot, he'll be well into his 30's and probably won't get a show because of that. I mean, no matter how well he plays, no matter how many catches he grabs or runs he scores, he will not get a Test spot until Gilchrist retires. There are countless other examples of players who have barely played any Test cricket for reasons other than their ability like Martin Love, Darren Lehmann, Jamie Cox, David Hussey, Brad Hodge, etc. and that's just in Australia where they at least get paid reasonably well. How many players in other countries are there who even gave up on FC cricket because it was too risky? I'm sure most of us have stories of guys who were good enough to at least play for their state/province but chose another track. Would Lou Vincent have even played Test cricket for Australia? Yet in moving to NZ, he's played 22 Tests and 97 ODI's and will likely play more.

I just think it's amazing how we have several threads on CW Chat here where people lament lost talented players for reasons other than ability yet when an opportunity arises to actually address it, "NO!! It's not traditional!" I bet just about everyone can nominate how many Tests Barry Richards played for SA. Yet how long ago was it? 40 years ago? And we're still talking about it! Instead he languished in English County cricket for the rest of his career. Aww, too bad but that's the luck of the draw. All too easy to say that when it's not you. Graeme Pollock is another who could have played for England if this system came about. Even then, that's not taken as a given; any cricket board would have been interested in a player that good and players like that should be afforded the choice rather than told for the next 30 years "Sorry about that old chum but hard luck."

Deal with reality, people. Cricket is a career choice, not merely a game any more. Who is anyone to deny a career choice for what is a risky enough choice as it is? The fact is, though, it's irrelevant; this is going to happen. 2nd tier players in various countries (especially, I suspect, the WI where regional vagaries as much as ability determine selection) will get the opportunity to jump ship and they should. It's still a big risk anyway because there's no guarantee of selection at the other end but at least they have a chance to be picked on ability than sit behind the incumbent for years and possibly never get a shot.

Even all of the above said, it's not like any of this is new. There are plenty of examples of guys playing in countries other than where they were born. This idea just formalises it and all opposition to it has been emotional thus far. All well and good for you guys who aren't in the position of having to make a tough choice.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
One thing Ive worried about in cricket is how International cricket is really the only way to make a good living from the sport.

Other major global sports ie Football, Basketball etc, even Union to an extent, have strong domestic structures where players can earn considerable amounts of money.

The Test and ODI basis for cricket finances means that players have little freedom of movement.

Ive often considered the question, 'If I was good enough to be offered a central contract and I thought it was less than what I deserved, would I have the courage to tell them to piss off?" The alternative to what is offered is currently zero.

Cricket boards have known they have a complete monopoly of their talent and have abused it as the players have no other option but to sign with them.

Now from Packer origins to what is currently happening in India, there are more options available to cricketers now than before but still the vast majority are under the thumb of the boards in order to make a good wage.

I have no issue with a player moving to another country for opportunities and money as long as they commit to that nation for the long term as both opportunities and money are hard to come by in this sport.
Well why not? I mean, those who are sufficiently patriotic won't take up the offer anyway and those who aren't should be able to maximise their earning potential and play at the top level if they can. This whole 'they should play for their country of birth' ignores reality; some players who are good enough won't get to and why should guys who want a career in sport be denied a living from it because of some parochial fever? Playing state cricket pays okay but it's risky; if you have a career-threatening knee injury, suddenly the last 10 years you've devoted to cricket (and not in, say, getting a degree) looks wasted.

I mean, the obvious example is someone like Kevin Pietersen. Here's a bloke who, for many reasons, couldn't get a go in SA and moved to England. If he'd been forced to play in SA, for all we know, he could still be playing provincial cricket and not picked for the Test side because his personality is a little brash. How stupid would that be? Don't say it wouldn't happen because I notice a lot of the players from SA playing in England are those who don't quite fit the conservative little mould expected of SA cricketers and could possibly be why they moved.

How about Brad Haddin? Because Gilchrist is in the side and not going anywhere, by the time he's in with a shot for a Test spot, he'll be well into his 30's and probably won't get a show because of that. I mean, no matter how well he plays, no matter how many catches he grabs or runs he scores, he will not get a Test spot until Gilchrist retires. There are countless other examples of players who have barely played any Test cricket for reasons other than their ability like Martin Love, Darren Lehmann, Jamie Cox, David Hussey, Brad Hodge, etc. and that's just in Australia. How many players are there who even gave up on FC cricket because it was too risky? I'm sure most of us have stories of guys who were good enough to at least play for their state/province but chose another track.

I just think it's amazing how we have several threads on CW Chat here where people lament lost talented players for reasons other than ability yet when an opportunity arises to actually address it, "NO!! It's not traditional!"

Deal with reality, people. Cricket is a career choice, not merely a game any more. Who is anyone to deny a career choice for what is a risky enough choice as it is? The fact is, though, it's irrelevant; this is going to happen. 2nd tier players in various countries (especially, I suspect, the WI where regional vagaries as much as ability determine selection) will get the opportunity to jump ship and they should. It's still a big risk anyway because there's no guarantee of selection at the other end but at least they have a chance to be picked on ability than sit behind the incumbent for years and possibly never get a shot.

Even all of the above said, it's not like any of this is new. There are plenty of examples of guys playing in countries other than where they were born. This idea just formalises it and all opposition to it has been emotional thus far. All well and good for you guys who aren't in the position of having to make a tough choice.
Have I mentioned before how similar Corey and Kev are? :)
 

howardj

International Coach
This idea just formalises it and all opposition to it has been emotional thus far. QUOTE]

I don't really grasp what you're saying. I don't think it's an 'emotional' argument to say that people want to watch meaningful cricket. Do you think turning countries into generic franchises would be meaningful? I mean, did you think that World XI Test match a few years ago was meaningful? Think about the reasons why many people, including the players, thought it was meaningless.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
How about Brad Haddin? Because Gilchrist is in the side and not going anywhere, by the time he's in with a shot for a Test spot, he'll be well into his 30's and probably won't get a show because of that. I mean, no matter how well he plays, no matter how many catches he grabs or runs he scores, he will not get a Test spot until Gilchrist retires. There are countless other examples of players who have barely played any Test cricket for reasons other than their ability like Martin Love, Darren Lehmann, Jamie Cox, David Hussey, Brad Hodge, etc. and that's just in Australia where they at least get paid reasonably well. How many players in other countries are there who even gave up on FC cricket because it was too risky? I'm sure most of us have stories of guys who were good enough to at least play for their state/province but chose another track.

I just think it's amazing how we have several threads on CW Chat here where people lament lost talented players for reasons other than ability yet when an opportunity arises to actually address it, "NO!! It's not traditional!" I bet just about everyone can nominate how many Tests Barry Richards played for SA. Yet how long ago was it? 40 years ago? And we're still talking about it! Instead he languished in English County cricket for the rest of his career. Aww, too bad but that's the luck of the draw. All too easy to say that when it's not you. Graeme Pollock is another who could have played for England if this system came about. Even then, that's not taken as a given; any cricket board would have been interested in a player that good and players like that should be afforded the choice rather than told for the next 30 years "Sorry about that old chum but hard luck."
I agree there's nothing wrong with players throwing in their lot with another country for professional reasons. Obviously blokes like Trott and Pietersen have decided their careers would be better served in an English rather than a South African cause and one would be naive to think their decisions were made solely out of a burning desire to represent the three lions. It's their professional right and a mechanism already exists for them to be allowed to do this via the residential qualifications both served. Crucially though it was their decision & they made it as adults.

What Buchanan was suggesting seemed to be something different though; he was advocating recruiting young players from Australia & India. It seems a little morally dubious to me for recruiters to be pressurising young players with offers of (say) scholarships and an improved standard of living for their families if they switch allegiances. What teenager is going to be able to turn such offers down? With India being such a financial powerhouse we could well have seen a player whose talent was apparent from a young age (like Ponting, say) in their colours had such a system existed 15-20 years back.

WRT Richards, Pollock et al there was nothing to stop them throwing their lots in with us (or anyone else) had they so chosen despite previously appearing for SA. Representing one country is no debarr on switching to another; the only proviso is the residential qualification.
 

Top_Cat

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I don't really grasp what you're saying. I don't think it's an 'emotional' argument to say that people want to watch meaningful cricket. Do you think turning countries into generic franchises would be meaningful? I mean, did you think that World XI Test match a few years ago was meaningful? Think about the reasons why many people, including the players, thought it was meaningless.
It's an emotional argument so suggest that every team will turn into a franchise. Rubbish. There will always be players wanting to represent their country and there will always be plenty of informal blocks to players who would be known as 'mercenaries'. It will never get to the stage of an entire country's players being from other countries. You're talking worst-case scenario which in any context, never eventuates and is, by definition, an argument designed to appeal more to emotions than rationality.

And the World XI example isn't analogous. Those players were thrown together for one Test and a couple of ODI's. Any team with players from other countries, if picked together for a period of time, will develop a following and be 'meaningful' in the same way that supporters find the Brisband Broncos meaningful to support despite not all of their players being from QLD. What has really been shown over time is that people are caring less and less about where players are from. Witness the erasure of State of Origin from AFL football and that it hasn't been truly relevant in either NSW and QLD rugby league for years.

What Buchanan was suggesting seemed to be something different though; he was advocating recruiting young players from Australia & India. It seems a little morally dubious to me for recruiters to be pressurising young players with offers of (say) scholarships and an improved standard of living for their families if they switch allegiances. What teenager is going to be able to turn such offers down? With India being such a financial powerhouse we could well have seen a player whose talent was apparent from a young age (like Ponting, say) in their colours had such a system existed 15-20 years back.
Why is that a problem? American universities have been doing the same with football, baseball and hockey scholarships for decades. What's the difference?

And yes it's, strictly-speaking, possible to see a player like Ponting playing for India, sure. But you can be damned sure a player of his calibre, identified at an early age, would have been fought over and, as this thread demonstrates, the patriotic angle is actually a tough one to overcome no matter the money. But then, if that's overcome and he does uproot himself and move, so be it. No-one has and should have a right to get in the way of that. We're talking bigger issues than merely playing agame for one's country.

I strongly suspect that top players are more concerned with playing top cricket than for the pure patriotic thrill of playing for their country, despite their protestations to the contrary. A middle-income earner family man with a mortgage and kids, if he's prevented from playing for his country for whatever reason, should be able to look after his family in any way he sees fit and if that means moving to, say, South Africa, getting more money and playing test cricket, well who wouldn't? Would you? I wouldn't but only because I despise moving. Another $10 000 might convince me, Mr Bacher...... :D

WRT Richards, Pollock et al there was nothing to stop them throwing their lots in with us (or anyone else) had they so chosen despite previously appearing for SA. Representing one country is no debarr on switching to another; the only proviso is the residential qualification.
Anyone have any insight as to why Barry Richards didn't play for England?
 
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BoyBrumby

Englishman
Why is that a problem? American universities have been doing the same with football, baseball and hockey scholarships for decades. What's the difference?

And yes it's, strictly-speaking, possible to see a player like Ponting playing for India, sure. But you can be damned sure a player of his calibre, identified at an early age, would have been fought over and, as this thread demonstrates, the patriotic angle is actually a tough one to overcome no matter the money. But then, if that's overcome and he does uproot himself and move, so be it. No-one has and should have a right to get in the way of that. We're talking bigger issues than merely playing agame for one's country.

I strongly suspect that top players are more concerned with playing top cricket than for the pure patriotic thrill of playing for their country, despite their protestations to the contrary. A middle-income earner family man with a mortgage and kids, if he's prevented from playing for his country for whatever reason, should be able to look after his family in any way he sees fit and if that means moving to, say, South Africa, getting more money and playing test cricket, well who wouldn't? Would you? I wouldn't but only because I despise moving. Another $10 000 might convince me, Mr Bacher...... :D
You're quite right, obviously. American unis do recruit promising youngsters from overseas (as do Premiership football teams over here), but they're recruiting them to compete at a domestic level. I would say the vast majority still represent their countries of origin on the international stage. If, say, NSW, Mumbai or Surrey took to offering scholarships to foreign youngsters to improve their playing resources then fine, but for one country to recruit from another does seem to rather make a mockery of what international competition is.

Ultimately tho it is a free market; so if any country wanted to pursue such an aggressive resourcing of overseas talent they could quite well do so. It does strike me as the thin end of the wedge to the best players being concentrated in the richest countries (or country; no-one is going to be able to seriously compete with India).
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
You're quite right, obviously. American unis do recruit promising youngsters from overseas (as do Premiership football teams over here), but they're recruiting them to compete at a domestic level. I would say the vast majority still represent their countries of origin on the international stage. If, say, NSW, Mumbai or Surrey took to offering scholarships to foreign youngsters to improve their playing resources then fine, but for one country to recruit from another does seem to rather make a mockery of what international competition is.
And that's what makes it different I guess. Knowing you'd be playing in a domestic league is a far smaller committment and life change than representing a whole new country. This is why I reckon it's a total storm in a teacup; the arguments for staying home (family, playing for your country, etc.) are very, very hard to argue against for potential recruiters. But, if I was someone like Brad Haddin, Stuart Law or Brad Hodge, I'd have jumped ship years ago. Which is sorta what he did when he went from Canberra to NSW.

Ultimately tho it is a free market; so if any country wanted to pursue such an aggressive resourcing of overseas talent they could quite well do so. It does strike me as the thin end of the wedge to the best players being concentrated in the richest countries (or country; no-one is going to be able to seriously compete with India).
Perhaps for sub-continental cricketers, sure. Up-and-comers from Bangladesh who can't get a go there might move. I just can't see it happening to a large degree, though. Look at one of Bangladesh's most talented players, Mohamed Ashraful. For every one of him, there's a couple of hundred in India who are just as talented and probably less temperamental and be far better players overall. Guess I'm saying that teams like India wouldn't need to recruit. Even with Ponting; at a young age, there's no way people would have seen him as good as what he's turned out. At the time, it wouldn't have been a decent investment because there were guys like Dravid and Laxman in junior ranks and there would have been plenty more just as good at that stage in their lives. Any young player from another country would have to be unbelievable to stand out from the talent already within a big country like India.

I guess I'm just saying in theory you could come up with dozens of scenarios which could crop up but an assessment of the likelihood is needed and most of them are extremely unlikely to eventuate. It's like terrorists using chemical weapons; in theory, a disaster is looming. In practice, there are reasons why it has never eventuated; it's so damn difficult to pull off that it's not worth the trouble so you'd just go for more established methods.
 

howardj

International Coach
Whether it's an emotional argument or not is immaterial. What matters is the merits of an argument. My view is that to be engaged in something, it helps if you have some sort of an emotional connection. That's even more the case when it's Nation versus Nation, as distinct from some of your examples of State versus State or Domestic team versus Domestic team.

For mine, it tears at the whole fabric of international cricket if you have players (even a few guys in each team) who are there for just opportunistic reasons - or reasons unrelated to genuinely wanting to represent that country. Or, to put it another way, guys who haven't demonstrated some sort of committment to that country by at least going through the protracted qualification process.

If we had such a system as Buchanan proposes, what would it mean to win the Ashes or to win the Border/Gavaskar trophy?
 

sideshowtim

Banned
Whether it's an emotional argument or not is immaterial. What matters is the merits of an argument. My view is that to be engaged in something, it helps if you have some sort of an emotional connection. That's even more the case when it's Nation versus Nation, as distinct from some of your examples of State versus State or Domestic team versus Domestic team.

For mine, it tears at the whole fabric of international cricket if you have players (even a few guys in each team) who are there for just opportunistic reasons - or reasons unrelated to genuinely wanting to represent that country. Or, to put it another way, guys who haven't demonstrated some sort of committment to that country by at least going through the protracted qualification process.

If we had such a system as Buchanan proposes, what would it mean to win the Ashes or to win the Border/Gavaskar trophy?
Exactly. I've always hoped that cricket was better than that. Cricket is one of the few remaining round the calendar professional sports where you can actually beat a bunch of blokes from the place they're representing! It may be an 'emotional' argument, but god damn it, emotion is the reason we support the clubs we do! It's a massive part of the game.

As I said earlier, cricket and its history, like no other, is strongly founded on a sense of nationalism.
 

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