Bradman vs Viv (against pace)

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Body line tactics were used by Lindwall and Miller, then by Martindale and Constantine vs Hammond in the Caribbean, and what Lillee and Thompson, and the initial quartet, especially Croft and Holding when the mood struck him, used to dish out put it to shame.

It wasn't the extra fielders that causes the problem, it was risk to life and limb and the restriction on scoring without risking same that was the problem.

Do you believe it was the tactics and the risks or the field placing that cause outrage and condemnation?

Serious question.

The main thing there is Bradman was just too quick to be hit. He only really got hit once entire season. Bradman could have literally just left everything that was on the body and he would have averaged way higher than 56.57 iirc which he did. Instead of that, Bradman actually went to counter. His Strike rate in that series was 74.5.

Bradman on body line series finished with averaging 56.57 at a strike rate of 74.5 facing an attack of Peak Larwood, Voce, Allen and Verity with an unfair field setting. That’s leagues leagues above average bowling attack Viv faced. If Viv had put that stats he would probably be hailed as no.2 here. As , I said if Viv was anything close to Bradman in any regard we don’t see an average of barely over 50.

 

[Migara]

It seems you have difficulty differentiating regular short pitched bowling and bodyline tactics.

It looks like you have trouble differentiating the way Viv played short bowling vs any other player. When you get the fear of getting caught in deep out, bodyline no longer works.

 

[Migara]

I think you're struggling to see the difference between Bodyline tactics and Good short pitched pace bowling, Yes Viv hooked some of the great bowlers, but not when the opposition captain can just put like 3-4 fielders just to counteract hooking and pulling strokes, you can't do that in modern games. Leg theory forces you to rely solely on cuts and pulls, defense gets you out, and even hooking and pulling becomes much harder than normal because of the unrestricted fielding positioning. The probability of survival/run scoring falls, for Bradman it went from around 99 to 60 I think, Viv's output is already 50-55, it'd fall further with Jardine's methods.

1. It's Jack Hobbs, he is above anyone in history that is not named Donald Bradman, the bowling was the same as what Bradman faced.

2. Bradman getting out to a single delivery from Herman Griffith is not evidence he'd struggle against pace, just a year earlier he almost finished Larwood's career in 1930 Ashes by just brutally obliterating him, and he was a yard or so faster than the carribean pacers and was a better bowler.

Once again and again you miss the point. Viv played pacemen of way greater quality than Bradman and still bashed them. Viv would have obliterated the slower pace of the bodyline bowling, given the way he obliterated Thompson, Lillee, Imran and Hadlee. All of your assumptions will be Valid, if Thompson, Imran, Lillee, Hadlee were of Larwood's and Voces' quality.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think it's fair to use Bodyline and compare it to how Bradman would do vs WI bowling.

The WIs werent doing bouncer barrages. They were quality bowlers also. And better than what Bradman faced.

 

[capt_Luffy]

all the factors can play a role.

The Original Bodyline that was deployed was unrestricted from fielding restrictions, thus fundamentally it was probably the worst usage of it so far, not only did it retain the later's risk of life and to the limbs and to organs, but the fielding setting was so outrageous that it just became impossible to score consistently in those contexts

Lindwall and Miller's bodyline tactics were not the same, because they had to abide by the fielding restrictions, if the original Bodyline that Jardine deployed in Australia was a two pronged attack, combination of genuinely threatening the lives and wellbeing of the batters and using that to get a catch near the batter, the bodyline that Miller and Lindwall deployed was only a cheap imitation and was basically glorified short pitched fast bowling.

Short pitched bowling had been around for years, the West Indies deployed it against England in 1928, and Ted McDonald used quality short pitched pace bowling his whole career, it was the leg side fielding placement trick combined with actual instict to hurt batters that made Bodyline so dangerous. The Fielding trick did not exist after 1934, so fundamentally it left Bodyline impossible in its full capacity.

IIRC, George Hirst and Bill Lockwood were the originators of Leg theory, which was refined into Bodyline by Jardine.

 

[vidiq]

It looks like you have trouble differentiating the way Viv played short bowling vs any other player. When you get the fear of getting caught in deep out, bodyline no longer works.

Not true

 

[Migara]

Not true

Wagner will be picking them up from the pavillion if he tried that on Aravinda, Ponting or Inzamam. Never mind Viv.

 

[vidiq]

Wagner will be picking them up from the pavillion if he tried that on Aravinda, ponying or Inzamam. Never mind Viv.

Do you think Aravinda , inzamam Were more aggressive player than Head and Warner?

 

[Coronis]

Not true

Do you know what Bodyline is?

 

[vidiq]

Do you know what Bodyline is?

According to me Bodyline= Bouncer barrage + unique field setting.

'Bodyline': Bumper barrage awaits Smith on Boxing Day

The Black Caps vowed to continue with the short-pitched attack on Steve Smith in the belief they have found the master batsman's Kryptonite.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Coronis]

According to me and Bodyline= Bouncer barrage and unique field setting

'Bodyline': Bumper barrage awaits Smith on Boxing Day

The Black Caps vowed to continue with the short-pitched attack on Steve Smith in the belief they have found the master batsman's Kryptonite.

www.smh.com.au

So no, you don’t. The term Bodyline is often thrown around by people who don’t understand it, or are using it as a joke, this a great example from Tim Paine.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

My question here is if Viv was that good against pace, so called even better than Bradman, why does he average barely over 50?? Unless he couldn’t even hold a bat against spin why and how does he average just 50!! We aren’t comparing him to a guy averaging 2 runs more but a guy who averaged nearly 50 more. The gap between the 2 in there is more than Viv and every test cricketer ever.

A guy averaging 50, isn’t better than a guy averaging 100.. Nope. Peak Larwood with Bodyline field probably is one of the best bowler ever. And then you got Voce, Allen and Verity to support. Viv would struggle to average 35 against that bowling attack with such fields and Jardine as the captain.

 

[Johan]

My question here is if Viv was that good against pace, so called even better than Bradman, why does he average barely over 50?? Unless he couldn’t even hold a bat against spin why and how does he average just 50!! We aren’t comparing him to a guy averaging 2 runs more but a guy who averaged nearly 50 more. The gap between the 2 in there is more than Viv and every test cricketer ever.

A guy averaging 50, isn’t better than a guy averaging 100.. Nope. Peak Larwood with Bodyline field probably is one of the best bowler ever. And then you got Voce, Allen and Verity to support. Viv would struggle to average 35 against that bowling attack with such fields and Jardine as the captain.

ugh don't exaggerate. He can easily pull a McCabe to get a 40+ average considering he's far superior to Stan.

 

[Migara]

Do you think Aravinda , inzamam Were more aggressive player than Head and Warner?

They were way better players of bouncer barrage. Other than for Ponting, didn't talked much too.

Don't believe? This is how Inzi treats Ambrose when he was provoked.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

ugh don't exaggerate. He can easily pull a McCabe to get a 40+ average considering he's far superior to Stan.

He can average 40+ but the chances there I won’t really bet my money on tho. I was thinking of McCabe too. Viv was a better batsman than McCabe but the gap isn’t next level large type. And when McCabe got going he was as good as Bradman himself. Viv probably averages 40+ 5/10 times facing Peak Larwood, Voce, Allen and Verity. But I won’t be sure tho tbh.

 

[Migara]

My question here is if Viv was that good against pace, so called even better than Bradman, why does he average barely over 50?? Unless he couldn’t even hold a bat against spin why and how does he average just 50!! We aren’t comparing him to a guy averaging 2 runs more but a guy who averaged nearly 50 more. The gap between the 2 in there is more than Viv and every test cricketer ever.

A guy averaging 50, isn’t better than a guy averaging 100.. Nope. Peak Larwood with Bodyline field probably is one of the best bowler ever. And then you got Voce, Allen and Verity to support. Viv would struggle to average 35 against that bowling attack with such fields and Jardine as the captain.

May be he was not as good against spin as Bradman? Or Bradman played inferior quality bowling than Viv? Bradman didn't play all the conditions that Viv played? Bradman didn't play reverse swing? We are only proposing Viv was better in playing pace. Not as a batsman.

If I exaggerate the case, Now if some one averages 100 against Bangladesh and another averages 50 against Australia, do you want to take those in the face values?

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

May be he was not as good against spin as Bradman? Or Bradman played inferior quality bowling than Viv? Bradman didn't play all the conditions that Viv played? Bradman didn't play reverse swing? We are only proposing Viv was better in playing pace. Not as a batsman.

If I exaggerate the case, Now if some one averages 100 against Bangladesh and another averages 50 against Australia, do you want to take those in the face values?

Which bowling attack are we talking about here? A bowling attack of Peak Larwood, Voce, Allen and Verity is leagues and leagues above average attack Viv faced in his career.

 

[Migara]

He can average 40+ but the chances there I won’t really bet my money on tho. I was thinking of McCabe too. Viv was a better batsman than McCabe but the gap isn’t next level large type. And when McCabe got going he was as good as Bradman himself. Viv probably averages 40+ 5/10 times facing Peak Larwood, Voce, Allen and Verity. But I won’t be sure tho tbh.

Viv will eat Voce and Allen for supper on the flat tracks Australia played those days. He walloped much faster bowlers on much faster WACA, without a helmet, hitting them over deep fields on purpose to demoralize them. This man averages 50 because the way he played. if he let his ego at the level of Tendulkar would have averaged in high 50s.

 

[Migara]

Which bowling attack are we talking about here? A bowling attack of Peak Larwood, Voce, Allen and Verity is leagues and leagues above average attack Viv faced in his career.

You mean better than Thomson, Lillee, Hogg, Pascoe, Reid, McDermott on Australian wickets? Wow.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

You mean better than Thomson, Lillee, Hogg, Pascoe, Reid, McDermott on Australian wickets? Wow.

I meant average attack all over the world that Viv faced and ended up averaging barely over 50. 50!!