Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[subshakerz]

While you did not vote for Kohli's team due to obvious reasons, your post implies the very high regard and expectations that you have for his team which is very nice to know.

I have said repeatedly on the thread that I would actually put Kohli's team ahead of Smith's if they won in SA and Eng because frankly they would have a better record. So I do think Kohli's team is up there and I have also said they have easily the best bowling attack in the world. The series victory in Australia in 2021 is the greatest series victory IMO in cricket history.

My main critique is not that India's team is weak it is that they have underperformed in certain overseas series to their level and ICC trophies. My main disagreements were about overvaluing IMO India's home record and also India's middle order problem which we have talked about.

 

[subshakerz]

You don't seem to think they are a good team though and completely ignore various circumstances involved to pretend to have a point. Also seems like you think teams being competitive is a sign of weakness worth marking down.

I said after the series that this SA side went up in my estimation. They are a better side than what they seemed before the series especially with a couple of promising youngsters. Still the weakest since readmission and a side India should have beaten.

 

[honestbharani]

Its almost as if its beyond a certain poster's mental faculties to understand that cricket is played on the field and not on paper.

 

[Xix2565]

I said after the series that this SA side went up in my estimation. They are a better side than what they seemed before the series especially with a couple of promising youngsters. Still the weakest since readmission and a side India should have beaten.

Doesn't answer my question.

 

[subshakerz]

Doesn't answer my question.

I already answered it, no? SA drawing in NZ doesn't change them being the weakest since readmission, and doesn't change India being favorites before the SA series.

 

[Flem274*]

But I ain’t gonna lie. Recent loss hurt. This was our chance. We don’t know how long before we tour SA again and how much team will have changed by then.

And while we are on topic of comparing current teams, current NZ team is overrated. It’s arguably their best side ever but apart from wining games at home (which also has changed), and winning in England, they literally haven’t done anything else. Has dismal record in Australia and India. It’s a joke if people believe they have claim to be number 1.

brother we're sitting on more recent away test series victories than at least one big 3 nation whose commentators think they're the only competition to India, and that was true prior to NZ A beating England (Pakistan away win). If anything the failings of the current side get hyperfocused on, probably to save face for certain major sides, and I say this as someone who thinks the local reaction to this summer is far too relaxed.

I don't think this is/was the best NZ side ever though. Hadlee factor matters too much, he was basically 2021 Kyle Jamieson for 17 years. You can't really beat that easily, even if Hadlee's side had players who would not get near the current team.

 

[Xix2565]

I already answered it, no? SA drawing in NZ doesn't change them being the weakest since readmission, and doesn't change India being favorites before the SA series.

The implicit question was about your double standards regarding rating sides pre and post Test matches played. And you've not really touched on that other than to squirrel away into a tangent about how the SA series loss by India is such a big dent that definitively answers the question of this thread.

 

[CricAddict]

I have said repeatedly on the thread that I would actually put Kohli's team ahead of Smith's if they won in SA and Eng because frankly they would have a better record. So I do think Kohli's team is up there and I have also said they have easily the best bowling attack in the world. The series victory in Australia in 2021 is the greatest series victory IMO in cricket history.

My main critique is not that India's team is weak it is that they have underperformed in certain overseas series to their level and ICC trophies. My main disagreements were about overvaluing IMO India's home record and also India's middle order problem which we have talked about.

The home record by Kohli`s team is quite enviable and you expect the away record also to be a similar one, expecting the team to be at the level of the great teams of 80s Windies and 00s Aussies, just to rate them above Smith`s SA. A very unfair expectation.

 

[subshakerz]

The home record by Kohli`s team is quite enviable and you expect the away record also to be a similar one, expecting the team to be at the level of the great teams of 80s Windies and 00s Aussies, just to rate them above Smith`s SA. A very unfair expectation.

Nah, I said they don't have to have as strong an away record as SA who were unbeaten for years. Thus far they had only won away in Aus, Sri Lanka and WI so I said some more success in SA/Eng where they struggled in 2018 would put them over the top in my estimation given their enviable home record. I don't see how that it unfair. I don't think they have to win everywhere but certainly improve in swinging countries like SA/Eng/NZ.

 

[subshakerz]

The implicit question was about your double standards regarding rating sides pre and post Test matches played. And you've not really touched on that other than to squirrel away into a tangent about how the SA series loss by India is such a big dent that definitively answers the question of this thread.

What would be the explicit question to be clear?

 

[CricAddict]

Nah, I said they don't have to have as strong an away record as SA who were unbeaten for years. Thus far they had only won away in Aus, Sri Lanka and WI so I said some more success in SA/Eng where they struggled in 2018 would put them over the top in my estimation given their enviable home record. I don't see how that it unfair. I don't think they have to win everywhere but certainly improve in swinging countries like SA/Eng/NZ.

When you add SA/Eng/NZ to Aus, Sri Lanka and WI, it is actually everywhere since India don`t play Pakistan.

 

[CricAddict]

Also, it is a joke that you don`t consider at all the poor SA home record compared to India`s home record and only harp on their respective away performances.

 

[Xix2565]

What would be the explicit question to be clear?

Also, it is a joke that you don`t consider at all the poor SA home record compared to India`s home record and only harp on their respective away performances.

Why you seem unwilling to seriously consider stuff like this in your ratings. You seem hellbent on judging India by a certain standard that isn't applied to South Africa based on faulty logic and I'm wondering why this should be the case and is more logical than other alternatives. Like in order for you personally to accept this Indian side overall you want them to be a rerun of the 80s WI or Waugh/Ponting's Australia without generally considering whether the current environment is conducive enough for a team to dominate to that extent. At a certain point this isn't rational.

 

[Xix2565]

Nah, I said they don't have to have as strong an away record as SA who were unbeaten for years. Thus far they had only won away in Aus, Sri Lanka and WI so I said some more success in SA/Eng where they struggled in 2018 would put them over the top in my estimation given their enviable home record. I don't see how that it unfair. I don't think they have to win everywhere but certainly improve in swinging countries like SA/Eng/NZ.

Also Australia, SL and WI are pretty varied as conditions go, where there's been spin/bounce/swing/seam/pace so I'm unclear as to why SA/Eng/NZ are singled out for being "swinging countries" that India need to win in for your judgement to change. Those 3 aren't the same and don't hold a monopoly over swinging/seaming conditions considering the era we're in.

 

[subshakerz]

When you add SA/Eng/NZ to Aus, Sri Lanka and WI, it is actually everywhere since India don`t play Pakistan.

To clarify, they dont have to win in all of SA/Eng/NZ, even something like winning in 1-2 and drawing or narrowly losing in the rest is improvement.

 

[subshakerz]

Also Australia, SL and WI are pretty varied as conditions go, where there's been spin/bounce/swing/seam/pace so I'm unclear as to why SA/Eng/NZ are singled out for being "swinging countries" that India need to win in for your judgement to change. Those 3 aren't the same and don't hold a monopoly over swinging/seaming conditions considering the era we're in.

Ok so we just have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes varied conditions. I think success in Eng, SA or NZ for a top team is important. You don't apparently.

 

[CricAddict]

Ok so we just have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes varied conditions. I think success in Eng, SA or NZ for a top team is important. You don't apparently.

Is that a "and" or an "or"? If India wins/draws the final test that will happen in July, India win the series in England. Will you then accept that Kohli`s India is a better team than Smith`s SA?


Or just find a new excuse?

 

[subshakerz]

Is that a "and" or an "or"? If India wins/draws the final test that will happen in July, India win the series in England. Will you then accept that Kohli`s India is a better team than Smith`s SA?


Or just find a new excuse?

If they beat Eng, yeah I think they would be roughly there with SA. I still think man for man SA was a better team, but India would have a strong enough away record combined with their invincible home record to make that case.

 

[Xix2565]

Ok so we just have a difference of opinion as to what constitutes varied conditions. I think success in Eng, SA or NZ for a top team is important. You don't apparently.

I think succeeding everywhere certainly is important and elevates your reputation, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend to have separate standards to apply to different teams for any reason. No point in praising better away records if the home records aren't equally scrutinized either.

 

[CricAddict]

If they beat Eng, yeah they would be there with SA.

There you said it. Case closed then.