Best Bowling All Rounder

[smash84]

Cricket Records | Records | 1980s | Test matches | Best averages | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Prince EWS]

Cricket Records | Records | 1980s | Test matches | Best averages | ESPN Cricinfo

What a decade for fast bowling. Even if you forget the stats for a minute and just look at the names down the list - Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Ambrose, Lillee, Wasim.. all those blokes are serious contenders for a lot of people's all-time world teams. I'd find a place for all of Imran, Hadlee and Marshall myself in mine. What a time to be a cricket fan.

 

[Teja.]

Looking at Imran's 'Bowling Career Summary' I selected 1980 to 1986 as his 'best bowling years';

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Plug those 6 years into Statsguru and you get;

1/1/1980 to 31/12/1986
Runs = 1423
Batting Average = 37.44
Highest Score = 123
Centuries = 2

Wickets = 184
Bowling Average = 15.92
Strike Rate = 42.2
5/ = 14
10/ = 3

It appears that your scepticism is misplaced kyear2. Imran's Batting Average during his prime as a bowler is almost identical to his overall Batting Average.

Note: Could someone confirm that Bowling Average for me as 15.92 is outrageous.

I'm a massive Imran fan and believe that during that phase he was as good a bowler as anyone has been but it's not actually intellectually factual to represent that those 6 years were his peak years as a bowler considering the fact that he was injured for about 2-3 years in the 1983-1985 phase.

It's actually more: 2 years of peak form - 3 years of injury - 2 more years of the same more than anything. It's still mighty impressive but I'm trying to add a bit of perspective.

Basically from 30 Jan 1983 to 16 Oct 1985, which is 2 years, 9 months, Imran Khan played one test match and did not take even one test wicket due to injury.

An argument that this was down to Pakistan not playing many games would not be sustainable either considering that Javed Miandad had played 17 test matches during that very same period.

So essentially, The average of 15 with the ball has to be read in conjunction with the phase of 1980-1982, 1985-1986 (only 3 tests late in 1985 too) as opposed to 1980-1986.

 

[Satyanash89]

The thing about Hadlee is that he was awesome from about 1974 all the way through to 1990 which is incredible. The only blips appear to be apart a couple of Tests in 1977 and again in 1989. In other words, he hit his peak after Year 1, then pretty much stayed there
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

That is mind-blowing. :o
Consistency of the very highest order. Reckon Marshall n McGrath will have similar figures... these three pretty much had no trough... just 15 years of peak

 

[smash84]

What a decade for fast bowling. Even if you forget the stats for a minute and just look at the names down the list - Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Ambrose, Lillee, Wasim.. all those blokes are serious contenders for a lot of people's all-time world teams. I'd find a place for all of Imran, Hadlee and Marshall myself in mine. What a time to be a cricket fan.

yeah, agree with the fact that it was a great time to be a cricket fan.

Such awesome quality fast bowling

 

[Valer]

Rose coloured glasses...

 

[Prince EWS]

Rose coloured glasses...

Normally I'd agree, but nah not about 80s fast bowling. Lillee and Wasim were definitely over-rated IMO (still greats though obviously) but Imran, Hadlee, Marshall and Ambrose will end up near the top of any serious statistical model to go with the favourable contemporary reports. I didn't get to watch any 80s cricket myself (other than replays obv) but the decade definitely saw more top echelon fast bowlers than any other so far.

 

[Valer]

Normally I'd agree, but nah not about 80s fast bowling. Lillee and Wasim were definitely over-rated IMO (still greats though obviously) but Imran, Hadlee, Marshall and Ambrose will end up near the top of any serious statistical model to go with the favourable contemporary reports. I didn't get to watch any 80s cricket myself (other than replays obv) but the decade definitely saw more top echelon fast bowlers than any other so far.

Ambrose played for 2 years of that. 1990s had

Marshall
Ambrose
Mcgrath
Donald
Pollock
Wasim
Waqar
Gillespie at his peak (eg when he was outplaying McG)
Walsh if you want to talk models
ect.

Not commenting on other decades as the 2000s are too fresh and players still haven't finished careers. Pre 1980s the serious player was smaller.

 

[watson]

Ambrose played for 2 years of that. 1990s had

Marshall
Ambrose
Mcgrath
Donald
Pollock
Wasim
Waqar
Gillespie at his peak (eg when he was outplaying McG)
Walsh if you want to talk models
ect.

Not commenting on other decades as the 2000s are too fresh and players still haven't finished careers. Pre 1980s the serious player was smaller.

Apart from the fact that Mike Procter, Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Colin Croft, Joel Garner, Dennis Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Len Pascoe, John Snow, Bob Willis. and Ian Botham were at their larger-than-life peaks during the 70s.

 

[watson]

I'm a massive Imran fan and believe that during that phase he was as good a bowler as anyone has been but it's not actually intellectually factual to represent that those 6 years were his peak years as a bowler considering the fact that he was injured for about 2-3 years in the 1983-1985 phase.

It's actually more: 2 years of peak form - 3 years of injury - 2 more years of the same more than anything. It's still mighty impressive but I'm trying to add a bit of perspective.

Basically from 30 Jan 1983 to 16 Oct 1985, which is 2 years, 9 months, Imran Khan played one test match and did not take even one test wicket due to injury.

An argument that this was down to Pakistan not playing many games would not be sustainable either considering that Javed Miandad had played 17 test matches during that very same period.

So essentially, The average of 15 with the ball has to be read in conjunction with the phase of 1980-1982, 1985-1986 (only 3 tests late in 1985 too) as opposed to 1980-1986.

Yes I noticed that Imran's 1984 stats were blank in his 'Bowling Career Summary'. But I didn't realise that 1983 and 1985 were effected as well. This makes his comeback against Sri Lanka and the West Indies in 1986 quite special - 33 wickets at 14.21.

 

[smash84]

Imran was a beast of a bowler at his peak.

The highest bowling peak of any post war bowler according to the ICC ratings

Reliance ICC Player Rankings

One surprising figure there is Ian Botham whose peak rating ranks him above Marshall

 

[watson]

Imran was a beast of a bowler at his peak.

The highest bowling peak of any post war bowler according to the ICC ratings

Reliance ICC Player Rankings

One surprising figure there is Ian Botham whose peak rating ranks him above Marshall

And Frank Tyson is bracketed with Simon Doull

At first glance that table seems a bit skew-wiff.

 

[marc71178]

Not skew-wiff at all, just needs to be taken in context. Doesn't show how long players were at that peak, but gives an idea of how good players were at their best.

 

[watson]

Not skew-wiff at all, just needs to be taken in context. Doesn't show how long players were at that peak, but gives an idea of how good players were at their best.

OK cool. But surely Tyson at his best has to be significantly better than Doull at his best?

My best wishes to Simon.

 

[Howe_zat]

OK cool. But surely Tyson at his best has to be significantly better than Doull at his best?

My best wishes to Simon.

Tyson is something of a special case - I think it'd be quite difficult to "measure" his story properly and still have it make sense for the others in the list.

from wikipedia

In the Test arena he demonstrated the pace that had overpowered the Australians on a green wicket at Trent Bridge, taking 2/51 and 6/28 against South Africa as they fell to an innings defeat. In his first nine tests he had taken 52 wickets at 15.56, but this was effectively the end of his career as England's premier fast bowler. A badly blistered right heel forced him to miss the Second Test at Lords and this injury would dog him for the remainder of his career. It was thought at the time that this was due to his violent pounding his foot received when he delivered the ball, but it was later found to be caused by the friction of his heel turning in ill-fitting boots.[21] His place was taken by his Yorkshire rival Fred Trueman and Tyson's last eight Tests were played intermittently over a period of four years before he retired.

The definition of a "peak" is a tricky one but presumably this list uses a period that takes up a significant portion of a modern cricketer's career. Comparing Tyson's nine-match explosion with Ponting's 2002-2006 dominance (the latter of which is favoured very well on the ICC list, I believe) isn't really comparing the same thing at all.

I think it's quite an interesting tool.

 

[Valer]

Apart from the fact that Mike Procter, Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Colin Croft, Joel Garner, Dennis Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Len Pascoe, John Snow, Bob Willis. and Ian Botham were at their larger-than-life peaks during the 70s.

Typo. I meant the pool of countries producing serious fast bowlers.

 

[Bahnz]

That is mind-blowing. :o
Consistency of the very highest order. Reckon Marshall n McGrath will have similar figures... these three pretty much had no trough... just 15 years of peak

Well, maybe not quite 15 years. Hadlee certainly wasn't a bad bowler in his earlier years. But this match is generally considered to be the one in which he really came into his own:

1st Test: New Zealand v England at Wellington, Feb 10-15, 1978 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Debris]

I thought we had an article a while back which conclusively decided that Keith Miller was the best all-rounder. Has something changed?

 

[smash84]

yes, the question by the OP

 

[Eloquentia]

I haven't read the thread so I've probably missed some definition debate or something but I'm just going to assume that when the OP states 'bowling' allrounder they're placing a higher emphasis on the players bowling than batting. For that reason - Hadlee. No doubt Imran was the better player though.