1986 Australian 2nd XI > West Indies 2nd XI

[TheJediBrah]

I've admittedly watched fewer videos of that period, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with the judgement on the replacement WI players, and the selection criterion seems to produce some odd results. McDermott, Lawson, O'Donnell, Wood and Wessels were all 'First XI' picks in the 1985 Ashes which means I suspect they lost form/were injured/were actually terrible/were out for some other reason at the start of 1986. Furthermore, McDermott may have been dropped and Dave Gilbert (average: 52.68) kept in at least one test, but that also shows how terrible some of our 'First XIs' were in that period.

I think that's the point of the thread. Hypothetically, despite WI being the best team in the world and Aus one of the worst, that outside their first XI they are hard to split or Aus possibly even better.

Not sure of the veracity of this hypothesis though, and it is very arbitrary. Though this isn't the first time I've heard the suggestion that WI lacked depth even at their best in the 70s-80s.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

They still had some pretty gun players who went to SA and/or dominated county cricket without being in the top XI.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

I think that's the point of the thread. Hypothetically, despite WI being the best team in the world and Aus one of the worst, that outside their first XI they are hard to split or Aus possibly even better.

The problem is it makes the Australian team seem better than it was by including 'first XI' players who were not picked in some tests in the '2nd XI'. They could have for some bizarre reason had a pace bowling attack made up of Gilbert, Davis and O'Donnell, and then the left out attack of McDermott, Reid and Hughes seems brilliant by comparison. The thing is, in making hypothetical selections, which would one actually pick as a first XI?

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Having re-read the OP, it says the 'best 2nd XI'. If Australia were dropping players all the time due to injury (Lawson) or no reason whatsoever (McDermott when Gilbert was in the team) who would normally be picked in the first XI, they will begin to build up an apparently formidable '2nd XI'. Meanwhile, the West Indies did not necessarily need to rotate through so many players, so their good ones would remain in the first XI rather than being removed to the 2nd, and the bad players would remain stuck in the 2nd XI making it seem worse.

An actually useful way of doing this would be to build a hypothetical best XI for the period and a second best XI. One needs to account for injury, how well a player did in that period compared to in general, etc., and I suspect Australia may have been trying more players.

 

[the big bambino]

Interesting speculation but I'd have to say Harper and Tony Gray were not useless.

 

[ttm]

Mark Taylor topped the shield runs scores list in 1985/86 so I think it's fair to include him. Dean Jones had not played a test in nearly 2 years.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

To look at the teams more in depth, let's look at Australian teams and squads played in the seasons overlapping 1986:

For 1985/86 (9 tests):

Batsmen: Border (9), Boon (9), Marsh (6), Ritchie (8), Wessels (1), Hilditch (1), Hookes (4), Kerr (2)

Pace bowlers: McDermott (6), Davis (1), Reid (6), Gilbert (6), Lawson (2), Hughes (1)

Spin bowlers: Bright (5), Holland (5)

All rounders: Waugh (5), G. Matthews (9), O'Donnell (1)

Keepers and keeper-batsmen: Phillips (9), Zoehrer (3)

That season's ODIs also brought two extra-special appearances by Glenn Trimble, and also Jones and Wellham.


For 1986/87 (8 tests):

Batsmen: Border (8), Boon (7), Marsh (8), Ritchie (7), Jones (8), Wellham (1), Valetta (0)

Pace bowlers: McDermott (3), Reid (7), Gilbert (2), Lawson (1), Hughes (4), C. Matthews (2), Davis (0)

Spin bowlers: Bright (3), Taylor (1), Sleep (3)

All rounders: Waugh (8), G. Matthews (7),

Keepers and keeper-batsmen: Zoehrer (7), Dyer (1)

ODIs also brought us O'Donnell, McLeay, Bishop and Whitney. Valetta and Davis played ODIs but were not picked when part of test squads.

 

[Dan]

	Australia	Windies
First XI	Marsh Wessels Boon Jones Border Phillips Matthews Hughes McDermott Lawson Reid	Greenidge Haynes Richardson Richards Lloyd Gomes Dujon Marshall Garner Holding Patterson
Second XI	Hilditch Wood Wellham Ritchie Hookes Waugh Zoehrer O'Donnell Bright Gilbert Matthews	? ? Logie Hooper Best Harper Payne Baptiste Gray Daniel Walsh

Composite teams based on who played Tests in 1985-86 (had to broaden WI criteria because they didn't use that many players).

The WI batting depth isn't great but the bowling is ludicrous.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Mark Taylor topped the shield runs scores list in 1985/86 so I think it's fair to include him. Dean Jones had not played a test in nearly 2 years.

Jones would play his next test in the next nine months and he was in the one-day side at times. Taylor was not considered for either format.

 

[a massive zebra]

	Australia	Windies
First XI	Marsh Wessels Boon Jones Border Phillips Matthews Hughes McDermott Lawson Reid	Greenidge Haynes Richardson Richards Lloyd Gomes Dujon Marshall Garner Holding Patterson
Second XI	Hilditch Wood Wellham Ritchie Hookes Waugh Zoehrer O'Donnell Bright Gilbert Matthews	? ? Logie Hooper Best Harper Payne Baptiste Gray Daniel Walsh

Composite teams based on who played Tests in 1985-86 (had to broaden WI criteria because they didn't use that many players).

The WI batting depth isn't great but the bowling is ludicrous.

And they still have Sylvester Clarke, Franklyn Stephenson, Winston Davis and Winston Benjamin up their sleeve. Personally, I would probably have picked Clarke and Stephenson over Baptiste and possibly Gray, but it is true to say West Indies did not.

Walsh/Daniel/Clarke/Stephenson/Harper would have been a truly formidable bowling lineup. Did any countries other than West Indies have a better bowling lineup than this in 1986?

 

[trundler]

Did Rowe/Kallicharan/Fredericks retire by then?

 

[morgieb]

Did Rowe/Kallicharan/Fredericks retire by then?

Fredericks I don't think even played WSC! Retired around 1976 from memory.

As for Rowe/Kallicharan....yeah I think they retired post-Rebel tour.

 

[Migara]

Walsh/Daniel/Clarke/Stephenson/Harper would have been a truly formidable bowling lineup. Did any countries other than West Indies have a better bowling lineup than this in 1986?

May be Pakistan with Imran, Wasim and Qadir

 

[ttm]

And they still have Sylvester Clarke, Franklyn Stephenson, Winston Davis and Winston Benjamin up their sleeve. Personally, I would probably have picked Clarke and Stephenson over Baptiste and possibly Gray, but it is true to say West Indies did not.

Walsh/Daniel/Clarke/Stephenson/Harper would have been a truly formidable bowling lineup. Did any countries other than West Indies have a better bowling lineup than this in 1986?

You cant have Clarke and Stephenson because they were on the rebel tour. Otherwise Australia could have Alderman, Rackemann etc

 

[grecian]

The opening post and the premise of this thread is nonsense. A true Australian second XI would never have beaten a true West Indies second XI at this time. Looking at the sides in the opening post, the Australian team might have beaten the West Indies side, but purely because it included several Australian first team players and a stack of West Indians who wouldn't have made their second XI.

For instance, if West Indies frontline bowling lineup in 1986 was Marshall, Holding, Garner, Patterson (as per the 1985-86 series vs England), some of the bowlers they could have called upon in their second eleven were:

Courtney Walsh
Wayne Daniel
Sylvester Clarke
Roger Harper
Franklyn Stephenson
Winston Davis
Winston Benjamin
Tony Gray

Most of these guys would have had a great chance of making the Australian first XI, leave alone second.

Regarding the Australian side, Mark Taylor was not an established player even in state cricket in 1986. Dean Jones and Merv Hughes were regular first team players. Craig McDermott took 30 wickets in the 1985 Ashes and would have been a regular first team player in 1986 if not for injury. Kim Hughes probably would have also been a first team player in 1986 if not for the rebel tour.

Admittedly the West Indies didn't have a huge amount of batting depth in 1986, but Australia had plenty of established batsmen who barely maintained Test averages of 30 (Geoff Marsh, Graeme Wood, David Hookes etc), so I doubt their second XI batting lineup held much of an upper hand over West Indies second XI at this time.

Indeed, Daniel and Clarke alone were truly fearsome fast bowlers, in any other era for the West Indies would have been opening bowlers, and blimey added to davis and the like look at their domestic records would have probably killed the aussie first XI at the time, let alone the second one.

In the Op he slagged off Tony Gray too, yeah terrible record Only taking wickets at well below 20 in ODI's and Tests, what a fraud.

I suppose there maybe a point that windies batting may have not had much depth but their pace bowling had many incredible talents.

 

[ttm]

Indeed, Daniel and Clarke alone were truly fearsome fast bowlers, in any other era for the West Indies would have been opening bowlers, and blimey added to davis and the like look at their domestic records would have probably killed the aussie first XI at the time, let alone the second one.

In the Op he slagged off Tony Gray too, yeah terrible record Only taking wickets at well below 20 in ODI's and Tests, what a fraud.

I suppose there maybe a point that windies batting may have not had much depth but their pace bowling had many incredible talents.

You are so right. I only remember Tony Gray from 1991 when he sprayed wides all over the pitch. After reading all the replies I have changed my mind - it would be a close series which could go either way because the WIndies batting would struggle to make 250. I still believe the 2nd teams are surprisingly closely matched considering how dominant the Windies 1st team was.

 

[grecian]

You are so right. I only remember Tony Gray from 1991 when he sprayed wides all over the pitch. After reading all the replies I have changed my mind - it would be a close series which could go either way because the WIndies batting would struggle to make 250. I still believe the 2nd teams are surprisingly closely matched considering how dominant the Windies 1st team was.

Hey I think it's a bit of a silly comparison and Windies second XI would kill Oz one, but it's led to some interesting discussion so good on you, point of a messageboard.

I wonder if there's scope for best ever second xi discussion, problem with these things is many will flit into the first xi.

hmm.

 

[ttm]

We will have to disagree then. Mcdermott, Lawson and Hughes would be all over Best, Harper, Logie, Payne, Gabriel and Hooper. I cant see them making 250.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Would they, though? Hughes averaged 44 in calender-year 1986, McDermott 49 and Lawson played a single wicketless test. Whilst it is arguable whether one should zero in so closely on a single period given it could encompass all of a patch of bad form in an otherwise good career, one cannot overlook it entirely.

Furthermore, it is again disputable on the basis that at the start of 1986 McDermott was in Australia's first XI, and Lawson might have been although he had injuries and spotty form. Hughes is the only one of those three who was definitely a replacement player at least from the perspective of the 85/86 season.

 

[ttm]

Would they, though? Hughes averaged 44 in calender-year 1986, McDermott 49 and Lawson played a single wicketless test. Whilst it is arguable whether one should zero in so closely on a single period given it could encompass all of a patch of bad form in an otherwise good career, one cannot overlook it entirely.

Furthermore, it is again disputable on the basis that at the start of 1986 McDermott was in Australia's first XI, and Lawson might have been although he had injuries and spotty form. Hughes is the only one of those three who was definitely a replacement player at least from the perspective of the 85/86 season.

Lawson averaged 19 in the Shield in 1985/86 and Mcdermott 26. Hughes, Mcdermott and Lawson all averaged less than 25 in 1986/87.