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***Official*** India in England

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
to be fair, i didn't watch the match, that's why i said "by all accounts"...from the cricinfo review and from a lot of comments(from some good posters) on here, his innings was anything but fluent and he had a huge slice of luck when a fairly simple catch was dropped off him, i love watching gritty, absorbing test cricket when the situation calls for it, when the batsman grits it out because of lack of fluency, form, it's not that great to watch...when it's your all-time favourite player, it becomes really tough....as i said, if he can use this situation to take india to a position of strength, great...otherwise, 50 or 60 off 150 odd balls in this situation wouldn't have helped india much, would it?
That's the point really. You're biased in your comments and want more because of how important Tendulkar is to you. It skews your vision.

And his 50 off 150 will NEVER be useless and not have helped India. Can't believe you're suggesting as much if he goes out tomorrow (hopefully he doesn't). It just won't be a fantastic innings, but he still contributed to the team.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
And no one has criticised Jaffer for his dumb arse shot.
Ya I am so annoyed with Jaffer - I am sure he is too for missing such opportunities to make test runs. About the approach England adopted to Tendulkar... any one else thought it was a bit foolish? He got out in the second test second inning trying to fend the short ball and England had adopted bowling short in that inning too. Doesn't mean you continue the same plan for an extended period.
 

R_D

International Debutant
I know he is playing for India and with this kind of play, he isn't really doing a half decent job. I dont care how how good he once was, I dont live in history.

And I know it isn't Tendulkar's job to entertain me, but I have a right to say it If I see him struggling to survive in test cricket. And no he doesn't play for India, He plays for BCCI.
hehehe.. nice.

Didn't BCCI filed in a case where they said cricketers played for them not india or somthing along the line and that they are a private entity. lol.... don't know why they don't call theem BCCI XI or something, also wonder how they have the rights to ban cricketers from playing in ICL than.
 

R_D

International Debutant
exactly! its a test match ffs....sachin is solidifying the innings...its not like he got to like 25 off 100 balls and then got out. AND...what are the chances that Dhoni will come in and do well?
This pitch should suit him..... i expect a run a ball 50 at least from Dhoni here :p

hope i haven'e jinxed him... but he won't be needed until after lunch anyway.
 

biased indian

International Coach
i used to hate the kind of inngs sachin played yesterday.....but now i am resigned to the fact that he wont be the batsmen once he was and now i am enjoying his new style of batting in test cricket..:)...now only thing i am intrested in is india winning games and he scoring centuries how ever boring and slow it may be.
 
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adharcric

International Coach
Regarding Karthik's decision ...

In real time, I was skeptical about that edge. Everyone seemed to conclude that the snickometer showed no edge. Personally, I saw a slight vibration in that graph. Was I alone?
 
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Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Regarding Karthik's decision ...

In real time, I was skeptical about that edge. Everyone seemed to conclude that the snicko meter showed no edge. Personally, I saw a slight vibration in that graph. Was I the only one?
There was a vibration, yes. Gavaskar made some good comments during one of the breaks. He said that given that the bat was so away from any thing else, the noise could not have been the bat brushing the pads or any thing dubious. The umpire must have heard a noise and thought it could have only been the bat.

He defended the umpire there basically I thought and he seems spot on. Great comments and great decision by the umpire, especially after Karthik said it was indeed an edge.
 

adharcric

International Coach
There was a vibration, yes. Gavaskar made some good comments during one of the breaks. He said that given that the bat was so away from any thing else, the noise could not have been the bat brushing the pads or any thing dubious. The umpire must have heard a noise and thought it could have only been the bat.

He defended the umpire there basically I thought and he seems spot on. Great comments and great decision by the umpire, especially after Karthik said it was indeed an edge.
Yes but I'm arguing that technology also confimed the edge, even if barely so. Do you agree?/
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Yes but I'm arguing that technology also confimed the edge, even if barely so. Do you agree?/
Snicko showed a slight vibration as a I said as my first remark. However, it wasn't enough to conclusively say that Karthik nicked it or not. The technology was not at all conclusive here.
 

biased indian

International Coach
Yes but I'm arguing that technology also confimed the edge, even if barely so. Do you agree?/
but if it was refered to third umpire he would not have given it rite ????

because that small vibration was just before the ball reached the bat ....
may be it was becuse of the camera angle...but i am sure no third umpire would have given that with the view he got.......
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
All those accounts are just wrong.

He copped a devastating short ball attack from Anderson early, and saw that off. The fact that he wasn't playing shots at those balls doesn't mean he was 'just hanging in there'.

See, this is why you need to actually watch cricket really before making judgment. Its never good enough to read reports because everyone sees things from a different perspective. For me, he had one lapse, that was his attempted booming cover drive off Sidebottom. He played for too much swing. Ironically I told my friend "I'd rather Tendulkar go out going for his cover drive then prodding to Anderson". Two balls later he was dropped going for that very shot. I wasn't that upset, because it wasn't like a massive error, just didn't play the line well.

Tendulkar CANNOT do anything right in people's minds sometimes. Its amazing. If he isn't looking like the Sachin from the 90s, then he should just throw the kit away and go in their minds.

People forget that Karthik was dropped as well. But no one brings that up when talking about his awesome innings. And no one has criticised Jaffer for his dumb arse shot. Let's criticise Tendulkar for seeing off some good bowling, when the cloud cover came JUST BEFORE he arrived at the crease, explaining Dravid's dismissal (the late swing, and good bowling). No I'm not saying it was a minefield or tough batting conditions, but it was definitely tougher then when Jaffer and Karthik were creaming it around.
i admitted i didn't watch the game and you jump on that, good job...:) ...and by the way, this is your report isn't it jono, written from your perspective, coloured by your subjectivity? the article at cricinfo was also written by someone who watched the game, correct? and that's just plain wrong?

and as for tougher conditions than for jaffer and karthik, tendulkar is a far greater batsman, isn't he and vastly more experienced? whether you realize it or not, your above post is incredibly biased towards tendulkar....

That's the point really. You're biased in your comments and want more because of how important Tendulkar is to you. It skews your vision.

And his 50 off 150 will NEVER be useless and not have helped India. Can't believe you're suggesting as much if he goes out tomorrow (hopefully he doesn't). It just won't be a fantastic innings, but he still contributed to the team.
no it's really not...that's a remarkable statement from you considering your own posts and how unbiased i was trying to be...and considering the time he has spent in the middle getting set, if he doesn't build on his 50 on this pitch against this attack, it will be a waste both from a team as well as personal perspective...
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Regarding Sachin and his style of play, one thing people should understand is that he is not as good as he was.... He has always depended a lot on his technique (esp. his excellent footwork) to play well, unlike say someone like Lara, who depended more on his natural talent and just worked out a technique of his own which suited him really well but may not work for others. Now, perhaps due to age or maybe a bit of fatigue after 18 years of cricket, his feet are definitely moving slower than how they used to. He is getting behind the ball quite late compared to how he used to bat previously. And it is also a case in point because his decline has been more in test cricket than in ODI cricket. If you look at the few adjustments he always makes between tests and ODIs, one of the main things you will see is that he is more willing to hit through the line of the ball with minimal feet movement in ODIs when compared to tests, when he plays his shots with better technical correctness.



Given that now, obviously, he is going to be limited in his stroke-making, I don't think it is such a bad idea for him to bat slowly like this... I know I was also amongst the number of guys who criticized him for batting slowly a couple of years or so ago, but since then, it has become increasingly obvious that whenever he has tried to play positively and play big shots, he is getting out or at least looking like getting out because his footwork is letting him down, BIG TIME. He is still able to defend well, esp. on flatter wickets because the chances of getting out only increase when you drive or cut away from your body than defend. It will also explain why he gets beaten so many times nowadays. Given that he simply cannot score quickly nowadays the way he used to because of this glitch, I don't think we should criticize for trying to score his runs in whichever way he can best do it. No, I still don't think his innings against BD were good (I actually think they were below average) because then the pitches were genuinely flat and the bowling wasn't that good and there was no way he would have been risking as much as he would be if he played positively here, for instance. But as Sanz said, maybe he was just playing himself into form and maybe he talked to the management about it and got their permission, in which case, it won't be so bad, although I am still skeptical of how anyone can regain their form through singles and twos and just generally manufacturing a century, instead of playing and getting one. Confidence? yes but form? I am not too sure.


But having said all that, I still think what he did yesterday was very good stuff. Come on, guys, how do you think he can score when they were deliberately bowling down the leg side, when the only option for a shot was a clip and they had a fielder ready right there and also one on the boundary in case it went past the former... There was absolutely no percentage for success there and with Prior being what he is as a keeper, it perhaps made more sense for Sachin to just leave them alone. It is one thing to bowl short and quick and get the ball to lift with a forward and backward short leg but if Vaughan genuinely believed that he could just ask his bowlers to bowl fullish, down the leg side and get Sachin to clip it straight to the leg slip, it was just silly. He may get out the very same way tomm. morning but it will still be silly. Good players will never bother playing balls down the leg side and after a while, u will see him move across and start flicking them around for ones and twos. Bowling bad balls intentionally and setting a field for them and hoping the batsman would fall for it may work once or twice, but to use it as a consistent tactic against an important batsman of the opposition batting order is just plain silly.


I will still find a fault with him when he deliberately goes slow on a flat track against not-so-good bowling if others around him are also struggling but yesterday, he had the buffer that the other batsmen were playing positively and he COULD take his time, which is what he did. How many times have the likes of Dravid and Sourav and Azhar benefitted from how quickly Sachin scored and how many times would it have helped them to just take their time and get a score in (which would have equally vital for the team, just like how Sachin's efforts yesterday would be)... Maybe now the roles have just changed. Sachin can't play the way he did in the past, he is not good enough to do that anymore, let's just accept that. Someone like Dravid though, has constantly improved and by the looks of it, I think he COULD take Sachin's role of being the guy who sets the pace. He has the technique, the talent and temperament to do that. Plus, my gut feeling is, he is gonna play quite a bit more positively today and do well. :)


Hope India can get 500+ here, otherwise, England would still be in with a very good chance of even winning this game. But their batters have to come to the party big time. Can't hide behind KP and Vaughan all the time. The time is right for the likes of Bell and Colly to come good.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
He is getting behind the ball quite late compared to how he used to bat previously.
I disagree about this regarding yesterday's inning. He seemed to have a lot of time yesterday. Even Ian Chappell agreed. He said some thing on the lines of how Tendulkar was having time and so was definitely not struggling. He egged Tendulkar to pull a ball to say he had had enough of this rubbish short stuff.
 
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ColdSnow

School Boy/Girl Captain
Guys Guys Guys!

Why can't you be objective here instead of just defending a player just because he is Sachin Tendulkar. I like Tendulkar too. In fact, he was the guy I watched growing up trying to emulate (but never could but then that's another story :laugh: )

But you cannot deny the fact that he has been scratchy in this innings. When he was on 20, he had already faced about 90 balls. What would have happened if Prior held on to that regulation catch? A quickfire 20 off 30 balls is better than a crawling 20 off 90. This is the reason I am saying he has become too defensive even if the situation of the match and the conditions of the wicket warrant otherwise. He just lets the tempo sag too much and kills the firepower that others may have built up. I don't want Sachin to bat at a run-a-ball or be reckless. I just feel it would help the team more if he picks singles every now and then and keeps the strike rotating. He gets into a shell every now and then. He has himself realised this as well. Case in point: In the first test, he was lbw to Monty padding up and now he is making it a point to score againt Monty.

This going into the shell thing is also reflecting in his ODI games. In the first ODI against Sth Africa couple of months ago, he scored 90 odd runs but it came off 140 odd balls.

What I mean is, he can be gritty and defensive but he should try to keep up the tempo by scoring singles and twos.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I disagree about this regarding yesterday's inning. He seemed to have a lot of time yesterday. Even Ian Chappell agreed. He said some thing on the lines of how Tendulkar was having time and so was definitely not struggling. He egged Tendulkar to pull a ball to say he had had enough of this rubbish short stuff.
yes on a flat and slow track... But he is not getting behind it as he used to against the quicker guys... juz check out how many times he has been out lbw or bowled recently. But one thing is, compared to the WC, he looks a lot leaner now, so maybe that might have helped to get his feet going a little faster than how it was previously but I still don't think he is moving as well as he was around 98-99 etc, when he was at his best.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Guys Guys Guys!

Why can't you be objective here instead of just defending a player just because he is Sachin Tendulkar. I like Tendulkar too. In fact, he was the guy I watched growing up trying to emulate (but never could but then that's another story :laugh: )

But you cannot deny the fact that he has been scratchy in this innings. When he was on 20, he had already faced about 90 balls. What would have happened if Prior held on to that regulation catch? A quickfire 20 off 30 balls is better than a crawling 20 off 90. This is the reason I am saying he has become too defensive even if the situation of the match and the conditions of the wicket warrant otherwise. He just lets the tempo sag too much and kills the firepower that others may have built up. I don't want Sachin to bat at a run-a-ball or be reckless. I just feel it would help the team more if he picks singles every now and then and keeps the strike rotating. He gets into a shell every now and then. He has himself realised this as well. Case in point: In the first test, he was lbw to Monty padding up and now he is making it a point to score againt Monty.

This going into the shell thing is also reflecting in his ODI games. In the first ODI against Sth Africa couple of months ago, he scored 90 odd runs but it came off 140 odd balls.

What I mean is, he can be gritty and defensive but he should try to keep up the tempo by scoring singles and twos.
yes, a 20 off 30 is perhaps better than 20 off 90 in that situation, but it is not ALWAYS better.... When u r looking to draw in the 4th dig and u have to eat time, a 20 off 90 is easily the better knock compared to 20 off 30.

And I am not denying that he looked scratchy for a while... Most batsmen do that when they are new at the crease, even on good wickets against patchy bowling. And when 2 quick wickets were lost, maybe Sachin felt it was paramount that he just stayed there instead of going searching for runs and in the process, opening himself out to the possibility of getting out. Personally, I feel it is only bad if he bats like this when the others are also struggling because in that scenario, you are simply letting the opposition in with a big sniff, since no runs are being scored at either end and they can start taking control of the game. But here, Sourav was playing fluently enough for Sachin to take his time. It is a team sport. DK was struggling to get runs initially and Jaffar, quite uncharacteristically, I might add, batted very positively and got the runs to help out DK to take his time to get in. Some other day, DK is going to do the same and help Jaffar get in. That is how it works and there is nothing wrong in Sachin using the buffer of how positively the other guys played to get himself a score here.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
yes on a flat and slow track... But he is not getting behind it as he used to against the quicker guys... juz check out how many times he has been out lbw or bowled recently. But one thing is, compared to the WC, he looks a lot leaner now, so maybe that might have helped to get his feet going a little faster than how it was previously but I still don't think he is moving as well as he was around 98-99 etc, when he was at his best.
Ya he has got out bowled and lbw a lot of times recently which has been his major problem. A major reason for it has been him playing across on the leg side. Gavaskar mentioned before this series started how great players don't get bowled and lbw the way Tendulkar has been so much in recent times before the test series started. He said that he found that Tendulkar had overcome that aspect in the tour games. However, we did see him repeat the error. He cannot move as fast as he moved before. He cannot bat in the same fashion for 18 years in his career. He batted differently at 16, 21, 28. However, a lot of people make the mistake that it necessarily translates to scoring lesser runs which is not necessarily true. You can see some one like McGrath, you don't even have to go back to Lillee. They didn't have their earlier speed but performed even later.

Look at Tendulkar's wagon wheel from yesterday:



He didn't hit the bigger shots on the leg side partly because England wasn't bowling fuller to him to play those shots and partly because he was in no mood to take risks. Cutting down shots doesn't mean you will score less runs. It means that you have eliminated chances of getting out. Which Steve Waugh would people have? The one which played the bouncers and got out or the one which made more runs after cutting down on playing shots on the bouncers. I don't mind Tendulkar playing less shots if he can secure himself not getting out and scoring more runs than he otherwise would have as a result of it.
 
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