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*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

Bahnz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Silver lining is that if the prognosis is only 3-months of rehab, then it's presumably fairly minor. I'd still be inclined to leave O'Rourke on the sidelines for the December WI series, and look to gradually build him back up for next year's tour of England. We'll need his extra pace and bounce badly on the Bazball roads.
 

Skyliner

International Debutant
'White ball specialist Finn Allen will also be unavailable for three months, after requiring surgery on a stress fracture in his foot that also ruled him out of the Zimbabwe tour.

White ball captain Mitchell Santner is in a race against time to be fit for the start of the summer, after suffering a sports hernia playing for the Northern Superchargers in England’s ‘The Hundred’ competition.
The 33-year-old experienced pain earlier this month, and has returned to New Zealand to undergo abdominal surgery, with an expected recovery time of one month.
That leaves Santner “touch and go” to face Australia, New Zealand Cricket said in a release.

Glenn Phillips will play no part in that Australian series, after he too was ruled out of facing Zimbabwe.'

 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Getting injured playing for the Houston no-hopers or the Northern Monkeys in joke tournaments. Well, at least they must have cashed a decent sized cheque for their choices (although I've never been quite clear with these franchise commitments as to how much of the money is the base contract price and how much is a pay-as-you-play element)
 

Skyliner

International Debutant
The injuries are certainly starting to pile up. The T20 circuit is pretty much a year round roadshow now, including the 'The Hundred' circus.
 

SteveNZ

International Coach
The injuries are certainly starting to pile up. The T20 circuit is pretty much a year round roadshow now, including the 'The Hundred' circus.
Yeah exactly - players talk about workload, but have they ever been busier in terms of playing all year round, not having sufficient time for recovery and off-season fitness bases etc?
 

Immenso

International Vice-Captain
That 3 month timing will not end up being true.

I'm no back doctor, but I am a longtime blackcaps supporter. So, I'm a ****ing expert.

At best, playing some super smash in the new year. Then that will be it from a visiblility POV, as there will be no 50 over cricket in the calendar - to gradually increase the workload. We'll probably not see him in any televised cricket after that until next winter.
 

_Ed_

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The other concern is, at least from our past experiences with fast bowlers, these stress fractures rarely seem to be a case of "one and done".
 

Immenso

International Vice-Captain
The other concern is, at least from our past experiences with fast bowlers, these stress fractures rarely seem to be a case of "one and done".
Yes. This is the initial 'little' one.
Then the proper one comes in their comeback.
Then 2 years.

Says Dr Immenso.
 

Skyliner

International Debutant
Will just looked a bit rangy and slight. Obviously a tall guy but did they do the strength work , putting a comprehensive programme in place, with him that they seem to have now done with KJ? Surely there must be a 'game plan' now as to how to prevent these injuries as much as is humanly possible, rather than accept them as a fait accompli and then look to do all sorts of things to prevent it happening again, which seems highly reactive. The Aussies seem to be able to keep their stable of fast bowlers on the park for significant passages of time with a greater workload: what are they doing and how can we learn from it? Surely it's not just a case of saying 'NZ always has bad luck'; we don't have a genetic strain of brittle bone syndrome in our populace as far as I know.
 

SteveNZ

International Coach
I'm no back doctor, but I am a longtime blackcaps supporter. So, I'm a ****ing expert.
And a forum member, which basically gives you a Doctorate in the subject

I am also both of those, but it's just such a vexed issue. I don't think anyone anywhere in the world has worked out the best way to manage fast bowlers and back injuries. In fact I know they haven't. Do they bowl less? How does that play out in terms of form, if their bowling loads are down and they find it harder to find rhythm? Do they bowl less in the nets? If so, who does bowl in the nets? Can you ask them to turn down T20 contracts (on NZC retainers, no you can't). Do you remodel their action? That has issues.

The only thing I think that is accepted you don't do, is treat a fast bowler like Joe Root did with Jofra Archer and bowl him into the ground because he's your major asset.

Otherwise, it's a bit of a hit and hope with a bit of science and know-how thrown in.
 

Mike5181

International Captain
I guess they've also had James Pattinson but it is a bit frustrating that Australia can have a guy like Pat Cummins have constant injuries a decade ago and somehow be on track to 400 odd test wickets and we lose most of Bond's career, half of Jamieson's, and now O'Rourke is having problems.
 

James

Cricket Web Owner
Will just looked a bit rangy and slight. Obviously a tall guy but did they do the strength work , putting a comprehensive programme in place, with him that they seem to have now done with KJ? Surely there must be a 'game plan' now as to how to prevent these injuries as much as is humanly possible, rather than accept them as a fait accompli and then look to do all sorts of things to prevent it happening again, which seems highly reactive. The Aussies seem to be able to keep their stable of fast bowlers on the park for significant passages of time with a greater workload: what are they doing and how can we learn from it? Surely it's not just a case of saying 'NZ always has bad luck'; we don't have a genetic strain of brittle bone syndrome in our populace as far as I know.
I may be incorrect here but if memory serves me correctly, I remember a documentary with Hadlee many years ago now, and he was against all the gym work fast bowlers do today and in his humble opinion that was one of the leading causes of injuries. He was more for just getting out there and bowling more and more.

It would be interesting comparing the number of injuries from Hadlee's era to today alongside the number of overs bowled.
 

Skyliner

International Debutant
I may be incorrect here but if memory serves me correctly, I remember a documentary with Hadlee many years ago now, and he was against all the gym work fast bowlers do today and in his humble opinion that was one of the leading causes of injuries. He was more for just getting out there and bowling more and more.

It would be interesting comparing the number of injuries from Hadlee's era to today alongside the number of overs bowled.
Lillee is one from that era that I remember as having the dreaded stress fracture issue.

'During a Test against Pakistan in the 1972–73 season, Lillee felt sharp pain in his back for the first time, but continued to play. On the tour of the West Indies that followed, Lillee broke down completely and was diagnosed with stress fracture in his lower vertebrae. Forced out of cricket, he spent six weeks during the winter of 1973 wearing a plaster cast that encased his entire torso. After the removal of the cast, he played club cricket for Perth Cricket Club as a specialist batsman. He returned to the bowling crease towards the end of the season, guiding Perth Cricket Club to the final at the WACA Ground. There was speculation that his bowling career was nearly over. Lillee persevered, undergoing an intensive Physiotherapy routine, formulated by sports scientist Frank Pyke, and remodelling his bowling action.'

I can't remember too many NZ players from the 80's through to early 2000's having the issue. And then along came Shane Bond.
 

Skyliner

International Debutant
Cricinfo article from 2009: 'The Case Of the Brittle Kiwi'


'The summer of 1999 was a good time to be a New Zealand supporter. In the World Cup, Geoff Allott and Dion Nash made an exciting combination. A year later, in Zimbabwe, Allott and Nash were queuing up for fitness tests. Allott had missed the England summer the previous year with a stress fracture in his lower back, and Nash already had a history of a collapsed disc. Both were making comebacks for the tour, but would have gone back midway in ideal circumstances. However, the team was desperate because of injuries to Daniel Vettori and Chris Cairns.'

'A study by the University of Otago in December 2000, about three months after that Zimbabwe tour, saw a recurrence-rate of 78% in bowlers who had suffered previous breakdowns. Bowlers who had suffered serious injury in the previous two seasons were 2.5 times more likely to have a recurrence of the same injury than those who had remained uninjured in that time. And 61% of the injuries occurred within the first month of the cricket season, including all spinal stress fractures, which were 14% of total injuries. Graeme Nuttridge, who worked with the New Zealand board at the time, and was also one of the researchers, pointed out how the high rate of injury in the first month of competition suggested that injured bowlers were probably returning too early.'

"I recall one night in South Africa. I remember my team-mates looking down at me in astonishment on the floor. That was when they came to know about the reality of how much pain I was suffering. There was a stress fracture I didn't know of, and I bowled at 140kph. It was quite excruciating"
- Geoff Allott

'Doull remembers the frustration of four operations on the knee, and several stress fractures, and the slipped disc. He remembers waking up and not being able to get out of bed or tie his shoelaces, and still playing.'
 

Immenso

International Vice-Captain
Will just looked a bit rangy and slight. Obviously a tall guy but did they do the strength work , putting a comprehensive programme in place, with him that they seem to have now done with KJ? Surely there must be a 'game plan' now as to how to prevent these injuries as much as is humanly possible, rather than accept them as a fait accompli and then look to do all sorts of things to prevent it happening again, which seems highly reactive. The Aussies seem to be able to keep their stable of fast bowlers on the park for significant passages of time with a greater workload: what are they doing and how can we learn from it? Surely it's not just a case of saying 'NZ always has bad luck'; we don't have a genetic strain of brittle bone syndrome in our populace as far as I know.
Pretty much the same comment as I made in the Zim tour thread. but I think you have got it in the wrong order.

The "Aussies seem to be able to keep their stable of fast bowlers on the park" because they are the ones who out-lasted their brittle-boned contemporaries.

Same for us when Southee, Wagner, Boult filled the bowling spots in the test 11 for a decade. We weren't agonising over the state of Adam Milne's back from 2014 to 2021 (like we were in the less certain times of 2012).

So, Aussies weren't worried about Pattinson, Hilfenhaus, Watson and Richardson.

As, Cummins, Starc and Hazlewood fade out .... the fact that Lance Morris has apparently skipped the "Don't Get A Stress Fracture.101" class at the academy will maybe start to bite. But probably not, because they will have the depth.
 
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