*Official* Road to the 2025-26 Ashes

[LangleyburyCCPlayer]

England have finally got their bowlers fit at one time. I think them being injury prone is the reason they have to go with 4 bowlers plus Stokes. The bowlers will have to be managed over the series and their overs will need management in the game. Besides that is their template with Stokes anyway.

If our pitches stay green they can get away with it. That 5th position just needs to go to someone who can shut an end down and bowl overs. Preferably a spinner but given the circumstances it could be a seamer.

Liam Dawson would seem to be the most likely candidate to do that (a fine batter too), but he's probably going to be back out of favour again

 

[LangleyburyCCPlayer]

lol jofra and his test batting average of sub eight

He's not as good a batter as Atkinson, Carse or Wood (don't know if Woakes is going to be in the conversation, but he's a tail-ender these days), but he can give it a whack

 

[TheJediBrah]

Liam Dawson would seem to be the most likely candidate to do that (a fine batter too), but he's probably going to be back out of favour again

Joe Root is a good enough bowler to do it alone. I've always thought they underrated him. At times he's been better than their specialist spinner. I've never seen him bowl worse than I've seen Bashir bowl

 

[LangleyburyCCPlayer]

Joe Root is a good enough bowler to do it alone. I've always thought they underrated him. At times he's been better than their specialist spinner. I've never seen him bowl worse than I've seen Bashir bowl

Root is our talisman, we need him to concentrate on batting

 

[Shady Slim]

It would be close to a cricketing miracle if Bashir had good returns in the Ashes. Australia is a graveyard for nearly all visiting spinners, even those who are well credentialed elsewhere. You occasionally find a quick who comes out of nowhere to do well here but I can't recall a spinner who's been mediocre everywhere else yet come to Aus and excelled.

i've done a statsguru search of the best tours here by visiting spinners going back a decade and here's what i got - min qualification of five wickets, so not a lot:

1. ravi jadeja in 2020/21 - two matches - 7 wickets at 15.00
2. kuldeep yadav in 2018/19 - one match - 5 wickets at 19.80
3. r ashwin in 2018/19 - one match - 6 wickets at 24.83
4. ravi jadeja in 2018/19 - two matches - 7 wickets at 28.57
5. r ashwin in 2020/21 - three matches - 12 wickets at 28.83
6. joe root in 2021/22 - five matches - 5 wickets at 46.80
7. ravi ashwin in 2014/15 - three matches - 12 wickets at 48.66
8. jack leach in 2021/22 - three matches - 6 wickets at 53.50
9. mark craig in 2015/16 - three matches - 8 wickets at 64.12
10. jomel warrican in 2015/16 - three matches - 5 wickets at 76.00
11. yasir shah in 2016/17 - three matches - 8 wickets at 84.00
12. moeen ali in 2017/18 - five matches 5 wickets at 115.00

meanwhile on the aussie side of the ledger you have

1. steve o'keefe with 7 wickets at 23.71 (played 2)
2. trav head with 7 wickets at 29.28
3. nathan lyon with 213 wickets at 30.80
4. steve smith with 3 wickets at 75

so aside from the indian spin rooms in 2018/19 and 20/21, you haven't had a single overseas spinner average less than 40 and take more than five wickets

 

[Shady Slim]

i've done a statsguru search of the best tours here by visiting spinners going back a decade and here's what i got - min qualification of five wickets, so not a lot:

1. ravi jadeja in 2020/21 - two matches - 7 wickets at 15.00
2. kuldeep yadav in 2018/19 - one match - 5 wickets at 19.80
3. r ashwin in 2018/19 - one match - 6 wickets at 24.83
4. ravi jadeja in 2018/19 - two matches - 7 wickets at 28.57
5. r ashwin in 2020/21 - three matches - 12 wickets at 28.83
6. joe root in 2021/22 - five matches - 5 wickets at 46.80
7. ravi ashwin in 2014/15 - three matches - 12 wickets at 48.66
8. jack leach in 2021/22 - three matches - 6 wickets at 53.50
9. mark craig in 2015/16 - three matches - 8 wickets at 64.12
10. jomel warrican in 2015/16 - three matches - 5 wickets at 76.00
11. yasir shah in 2016/17 - three matches - 8 wickets at 84.00
12. moeen ali in 2017/18 - five matches 5 wickets at 115.00

meanwhile on the aussie side of the ledger you have

1. steve o'keefe with 7 wickets at 23.71 (played 2)
2. trav head with 7 wickets at 29.28
3. nathan lyon with 213 wickets at 30.80
4. steve smith with 3 wickets at 75

so aside from the indian spin rooms in 2018/19 and 20/21, you haven't had a single overseas spinner average less than 40 and take more than five wickets

i thought that keshav had a pretty good series here first time out but it turns out he only took wickets in perth and so missed the wickets cutoff. yasir shah also doesn't meet the wickets cutoff in his second series here when he tonned up. no spinner from sri lanka makes the cut either

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Jfc Mark Craig bowled some absolute rubbish that series. Those figures almost flatter him imo

 

[Shady Slim]

Jfc Mark Craig bowled some absolute rubbish that series. Those figures almost flatter him imo

formative memory coming home from year ten and watching mitch starc send him to the shadow realm

 

[Shady Slim]

formative memory coming home from year ten and watching mitch starc send him to the shadow realm

**** me that was ten years ago now man wtf

 

[govinda indian fan]

i thought that keshav had a pretty good series here first time out but it turns out he only took wickets in perth and so missed the wickets cutoff. yasir shah also doesn't meet the wickets cutoff in his second series here when he tonned up. no spinner from sri lanka makes the cut either

Yasir shah in aus 2019 imo was worst bowling by spinner in a series till i saw bashir in latest eng-ind series

 

[Shady Slim]

Yasir shah in aus 2019 imo was worst bowling by spinner in a series till i saw bashir in latest eng-ind series

seeing the other numbers really puts into perspective how much ashwin and jadeja contributed with the ball in 18/19 and 20/21, not just in the context of the series but compared to their peers!

 

[Spark]

Maharaj in 2022-23 was godawful as well, granted across a much smaller amount of bowling.

 

[govinda indian fan]

seeing the other numbers really puts into perspective how much ashwin and jadeja contributed with the ball in 18/19 and 20/21, not just in the context of the series but compared to their peers!

Ash and jadeja actually did well in aus. There were pillers of our 18/19 and 20/21 wins

 

[Blenkinsop]

Were the Bashir haters watching the same series? I've never understood his selection but thought he bowled OK pretty much throughout. We can all agree that Washington was the best spinner on display but Bashir certainly wasn't the worst. I fully expected the Indian batters to smash him out of the attack at every possible opportunity so as to increase the load on our pace bowlers and I don't think they ever managed that.

 

[govinda indian fan]

Were the Bashir haters watching the same series? I've never understood his selection but thought he bowled OK pretty much throughout. We can all agree that Washington was the best spinner on display but Bashir certainly wasn't the worst. I fully expected the Indian batters to smash him out of the attack at every possible opportunity so as to increase the load on our pace bowlers and I don't think they ever managed that.

It is because gill doesn't have shots vs spin except front foot defence. Pant smashed him but yes i agree india were too cautious vs him maybe bad memories of 2014 tour when they got out trying to hit moeen

 

[LangleyburyCCPlayer]

i've done a statsguru search of the best tours here by visiting spinners going back a decade and here's what i got - min qualification of five wickets, so not a lot:

1. ravi jadeja in 2020/21 - two matches - 7 wickets at 15.00
2. kuldeep yadav in 2018/19 - one match - 5 wickets at 19.80
3. r ashwin in 2018/19 - one match - 6 wickets at 24.83
4. ravi jadeja in 2018/19 - two matches - 7 wickets at 28.57
5. r ashwin in 2020/21 - three matches - 12 wickets at 28.83
6. joe root in 2021/22 - five matches - 5 wickets at 46.80
7. ravi ashwin in 2014/15 - three matches - 12 wickets at 48.66
8. jack leach in 2021/22 - three matches - 6 wickets at 53.50
9. mark craig in 2015/16 - three matches - 8 wickets at 64.12
10. jomel warrican in 2015/16 - three matches - 5 wickets at 76.00
11. yasir shah in 2016/17 - three matches - 8 wickets at 84.00
12. moeen ali in 2017/18 - five matches 5 wickets at 115.00

meanwhile on the aussie side of the ledger you have

1. steve o'keefe with 7 wickets at 23.71 (played 2)
2. trav head with 7 wickets at 29.28
3. nathan lyon with 213 wickets at 30.80
4. steve smith with 3 wickets at 75

so aside from the indian spin rooms in 2018/19 and 20/21, you haven't had a single overseas spinner average less than 40 and take more than five wickets

One Test only, and Kuldeep is an absolute gun, but I think Rehan Ahmed likes the look of Kuldeep’s figures!

 

[Chin Music]

It is because gill doesn't have shots vs spin except front foot defence. Pant smashed him but yes i agree india were too cautious vs him maybe bad memories of 2014 tour when they got out trying to hit moeen

That doesn’t make sense re bad memories of Moeen. None of that side bar maybe Jadeja would have been on that tour. I did say earlier in the thread that I thought Bashir had bowled considerably better in the first test especially and reasonably overall given the circumstances.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bashir could bowl 10x better than Moeen ever did in the Ashes and still be awful

 

[Molehill]

i've done a statsguru search of the best tours here by visiting spinners going back a decade and here's what i got - min qualification of five wickets, so not a lot:

1. ravi jadeja in 2020/21 - two matches - 7 wickets at 15.00
2. kuldeep yadav in 2018/19 - one match - 5 wickets at 19.80
3. r ashwin in 2018/19 - one match - 6 wickets at 24.83
4. ravi jadeja in 2018/19 - two matches - 7 wickets at 28.57
5. r ashwin in 2020/21 - three matches - 12 wickets at 28.83
6. joe root in 2021/22 - five matches - 5 wickets at 46.80
7. ravi ashwin in 2014/15 - three matches - 12 wickets at 48.66
8. jack leach in 2021/22 - three matches - 6 wickets at 53.50
9. mark craig in 2015/16 - three matches - 8 wickets at 64.12
10. jomel warrican in 2015/16 - three matches - 5 wickets at 76.00
11. yasir shah in 2016/17 - three matches - 8 wickets at 84.00
12. moeen ali in 2017/18 - five matches 5 wickets at 115.00

meanwhile on the aussie side of the ledger you have

1. steve o'keefe with 7 wickets at 23.71 (played 2)
2. trav head with 7 wickets at 29.28
3. nathan lyon with 213 wickets at 30.80
4. steve smith with 3 wickets at 75

so aside from the indian spin rooms in 2018/19 and 20/21, you haven't had a single overseas spinner average less than 40 and take more than five wickets

Lyon is such a good yardstick, one of the best off spinners Aus has ever produced and his home average is 31, 1 worse than his overall. Swann was England's best spinner for 50 years, played in a winning side and still only averaged 39.

If you look at only those who have played a minimum of 3 Tests, it is just Ashwin who averages less than 30 (in fact less than 40). The spinning role is not really going to decide this series and perhaps makes it even more clear that England should pick Dawson (but they won't).

 

[Chin Music]

Lyon is such a good yardstick, one of the best off spinners Aus has ever produced and his home average is 31, 1 worse than his overall. Swann was England's best spinner for 50 years, played in a winning side and still only averaged 39.

If you look at only those who have played a minimum of 3 Tests, it is just Ashwin who averages less than 30 (in fact less than 40). The spinning role is not really going to decide this series and perhaps makes it even more clear that England should pick Dawson (but they won't).

Australia is such an outlier in conditions. I'm not sure that they'll pick Dawson because of the multitude of left handers Australia will have. Although I have little doubt he'll show greater discipline in terms of more consistent line and length, you can't help think that they'll still successfully attack him.