What we learned from the 4th test

[mackembhoy]

India fail to win their third series in a row.

 

[Molehill]

India fail to win their third series in a row.

Yep, for all the deflection tactics, this is a fair summary....and that despite having got rid of their deadwood that was apparently holding them back.

 

[Spark]

Yep, for all the deflection tactics, this is a fair summary....and that despite having got rid of their deadwood that was apparently holding them back.

There's no contradiction between Virat and Rohit hanging around like a bad smell holding the team back, and the team probably getting worse in the short term before they get better. Indeed a large part of the criticism was that them blocking the way prevented young batsmen getting a proper go at Test level to be evaluated and blooded while the team was still strong, instead of having it to do it now when the team is a lot weaker.

 

[Burgey]

Brook averages 57
Smith averages over 50

Marnus averaged 60 odd at one point too mate. It's very early days for both of them. They'll get found out during the Ashes out here, all Englishmen do. At best they, like Root by the time he finishes, will end up averaging mid-high 40s. Which is fine, it puts them in the very good category, or as it's known in England "all time great level."

 

[Burgey]

If the W Indies can prevent the Aussies scoring over 250, then I'd fancy England to do likewise

You genuinely have your head up your own backside if you rate the current crop of English bowlers on anything like the same level as the current WI quicks.

 

[Molehill]

You genuinely have your head up your own backside if you rate the current crop of English bowlers on anything like the same level as the current WI quicks.

Hard to judge them on flat roads against a half decent batting line up though.

Imagine they were bowling on those Caribbean tracks to Khawaja and Konstas?

 

[Molehill]

Marnus averaged 60 odd at one point too mate. It's very early days for both of them. They'll get found out during the Ashes out here, all Englishmen do. At best they, like Root by the time he finishes, will end up averaging mid-high 40s. Which is fine, it puts them in the very good category, or as it's known in England "all time great level."

https://www.espncricinfo.com/records/series/averages-batting-bowling-by-team/the-ashes-2010-11-5540?team=1

All Time Great level would be this kind of ****.

Root unfortunate to have timed his career alongside an ATG Aussie bowling line up. You'd probably better enjoy this Ashes as it's the last time they'll all be together. And the future doesn't exactly look hot.

 

[Burgey]

Hard to judge them on flat roads against a half decent batting line up though.

Imagine they were bowling on those Caribbean tracks to Khawaja and Konstas?

No it's not hard to judge them at all, because good bowlers still make life hard for decent players on good batting tracks. Have you watched them bowl? How can you have watched the England attack bowl this summer and conclude anything other than they're toothless, aside from a couple of Archer spells? They don't have a spinner, and their best quick has been Stokes.

It's not because these bowlers have failed to take five for squat, it's that they've barely caused a problem for a batting line up which was largely unproven before the series began. They've managed to turn Gill from a Graeme Wood-standard player into Wally Hammond ffs. The bloke was averaging 30 odd across the same number of tests before this series. Rahul has looked almost impenetrable to them as well. I quite like KL myself, but his record suggests he shouldn't be churning out the runs he has away from home. Aside from Jaiswal, Pant (and Jadeja as an AR), this Indian side was largely unproven or had not consistently got it done as a batting unit for a while, yet on day five at Manchester England's bowlers turned them into Leeds 1948 Australia.

You know its ok to acknowledge a thing or two about England Cricket is less than superlative, right? You even had a bet each way in your initial response to Stokes' school boy outburst on the last day.

Come on, man. They're playing at home and they've looked terrible. It's ok to admit it.

 

[Molehill]

There's no contradiction between Virat and Rohit hanging around like a bad smell holding the team back, and the team probably getting worse in the short term before they get better. Indeed a large part of the criticism was that them blocking the way prevented young batsmen getting a proper go at Test level to be evaluated and blooded while the team was still strong, instead of having it to do it now when the team is a lot weaker.

And yet the successes of the Tour would appear to be Rahul moving up to open and Gill batting at 4.

 

[Burgey]

Molehill, you need to reassess your decisions here mate, or I'll have no choice but to add you to my pre-emptive Ashes ban list which is shortly to be forwarded to the mods; along with Johan and anyone who's substantively posted in the Durham CCC thread more than twice., among others.

The decision is yours to make.

 

[Molehill]

No it's not hard to judge them at all, because good bowlers still make life hard for decent players on good batting tracks. Have you watched them bowl? How can you have watched the England attack bowl this summer and conclude anything other than they're toothless, aside from a couple of Archer spells? They don't have a spinner, and their best quick has been Stokes.

It's not because these bowlers have failed to take five for squat, it's that they've barely caused a problem for a batting line up which was largely unproven before the series began. They've managed to turn Gill from a Graeme Wood-standard player into Wally Hammond ffs. The bloke was averaging 30 odd across the same number of tests before this series. Rahul has looked almost impenetrable to them as well. I quite like KL myself, but his record suggests he shouldn't be churning out the runs he has away from home. Aside from Jaiswal, Pant (and Jadeja as an AR), this Indian side was largely unproven or had not consistently got it done as a batting unit for a while, yet on day five at Manchester England's bowlers turned them into Leeds 1948 Australia.

You know its ok to acknowledge a thing or two about England Cricket is less than superlative, right? You even had a bet each way in your initial response to Stokes' school boy outburst on the last day.

Come on, man. They're playing at home and they've looked terrible. It's ok to admit it.

I'm aware of the weaknesses, but you only look at it one way. For starters, England are 2-1 up heading into the Final Test of a 5 match series, exactly the same scoreline as the BGT a few months ago.

Bumrah took 32 wickets at 13 in Australia, he's got 14 at 26 here so far (and he was afforded a break from one match). Siraj 20 at 31 in Aus, 14 at 39 here. Even Krishna took 6 wickets at 18 in Aus, his 6 wickets here have gone for 55!! Now either England have a vastly superior batting line up than Aus, or just perhaps the pitches are not as helpful.

I actually think Stokes performance with the ball in this series has been pretty astonishing, 17 wickets at 25 on these pitches is......well it's better than Bumrah.

 

[Burgey]

Again, you’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re having comprehension issues.

The point isn’t the number of wickets in and of itself, it’s that they’ve looked clueless and toothless. As I posted earlier, India can sit on Archer and make hay against the others. Same with Bumrah, though Siraj is a notably better bowler overall than Woakes, Carse or Tongue.

Archer’s numbers are hardly brilliant but he’s been a threat at times. The others really haven’t. If you’re saying you just shrug your shoulders and concede a stack of runs because the decks aren’t juicy, then you’re admitting the bowlers aren’t very good, because they’re incapable of posing problems on decent batting pitches.

 

[Shady Slim]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/records/series/averages-batting-bowling-by-team/the-ashes-2010-11-5540?team=1

All Time Great level would be this kind of ****.

Root unfortunate to have timed his career alongside an ATG Aussie bowling line up. You'd probably better enjoy this Ashes as it's the last time they'll all be together. And the future doesn't exactly look hot.

while this is unequivocally true, and i also agree with a point made by someone earlier (i think it may have been LnL) that tons are a bit silly of a metric in that there's no substantive difference between making 99 and 101 in terms of contribution to result, a list of players who have a ton in australia against the mighty aussie bowling attack during root's career
jp duminy
dawid malan
tom blundell
nk reddy
yasir shah
jonny bairstow
kraigg brathwaite
darren bravo
stephen cook

none of these players (some of whom are solid, some of whom are not) are half the batsman root is and yet they've managed to hit triple figures here against this mighty attack. by extending the qualifier to players who've scored more than 89 (root's highest in australia), kraigg brathwaite gets on the list a second time and you invite lahiru thirimanne in to the club. lahiru thirimanne has a more impressive high score in australia in root's career.

even if you're going beyond "tons" to a more nuanced metric, root just doesn't have a single innings here where he's said to the team, get behind me, we're getting this done. ali cook had that drudgerous 244* in melbourne to save england from another horror 5-0. hanuma vihari and ravi ashwin batted out the fifth day in sydney to save the series for team india in 2021. obviously it's not all root's fault - he's been often lacking in support, that much is true, but having had twenty seven innings in australia and having less impressive returns than hanuma vihari or yasir shah, certainly is a reason to mark his cards until he proves otherwise.

 

[Molehill]

Again, you’re either being deliberately obtuse or you’re having comprehension issues.

The point isn’t the number of wickets in and of itself, it’s that they’ve looked clueless and toothless. As I posted earlier, India can sit on Archer and make hay against the others. Same with Bumrah, though Siraj is a notably better bowler overall than Woakes, Carse or Tongue.

Archer’s numbers are hardly brilliant but he’s been a threat at times. The others really haven’t. If you’re saying you just shrug your shoulders and concede a stack of runs because the decks aren’t juicy, then you’re admitting the bowlers aren’t very good, because they’re incapable of posing problems on decent batting pitches.

Is part of the reason they've looked toothless not down to the pitches? I mean look at Boland when he's not got any help from the deck.

A reminder that England smashed 600 against Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins at OT in 2023, with only Hazlewood claiming his ton at less than 5 an over. Were they clueless and toothless?

Look, I'll happily accept that the Aussie attack is far superior to England's, that's obvious. But to write them off on the basis of this series would be daft, especially when you consider Woakes' previous record in this country for example (not that I expect him to play in Aus).

 

[Spark]

It's genuinely as if that one game is literally the only game that has ever happened between Australia and England in the last 15 years, the way it's increasingly being spoken of.

 

[Burgey]

Delulu with no solulu

 

[Molehill]

It's genuinely as if that one game is literally the only game that has ever happened between Australia and England in the last 15 years, the way it's increasingly being spoken of.

I'm just using that as an example of the OT pitch. Even the best can get blown away there. The likes of Carse and Atkinson seemed to go ok in NZ earlier this year. I expect them to perform better with more helpful pitches.

 

[Shady Slim]

A reminder that England smashed 600 against Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins at OT in 2023, with only Hazlewood claiming his ton at less than 5 an over. Were they clueless and toothless?

you mean the match which ended in a draw and ended england's hopes of reclaiming the ashes because australia's bowlers had already taken the 40 wickets that they needed to ensure that even a bit of rain in any of the last three tests guaranteed the ashes would return to our shores?

 

[Molehill]

you mean the match which ended in a draw and ended england's hopes of reclaiming the ashes because australia's bowlers had already taken the 40 wickets that they needed to ensure that even a bit of rain in any of the last three tests guaranteed the ashes would return to our shores?

It's kind of amazing that with an ATG bowling line up, being saved by rain from defeat in both 2019 and 2023, Smith having an all timer in 2019, that Aus still haven't won a series here for a quarter of a century. Pretty damning tbh, and that's clearly not changing any time soon.

 

[Shady Slim]

It's kind of amazing that with an ATG bowling line up, being saved by rain from defeat in both 2019 and 2023, Smith having an all timer in 2019, that Aus still haven't won a series here for a quarter of a century. Pretty damning tbh, and that's clearly not changing any time soon.

i agree that the concept of "retaining" the ashes is kind of goofy, but yes, this post is unequivocally correct - australia's performances in england have been much better than england's performances here but it's disappointing it hasn't been enough to win a series outright. part of it goes to spuddy selections with the bat, like giving a passport to davey warner that allows him to travel anywhere other than south africa, or giving a passport at all to marcus harris. part of it is also credited to england's great performances at home where broad and woakes can be demons too!