*Official* Australia Tour of West Indies 2025

[Bahseph]

BTW in amongst all this, I didn't get the chance to talk about Alzarri. The last 2 tests saw the Alzarri we hoped we would get years ago. Hopefully the penny has dropped. Ravi Rampaul is a genius of a bowling coach, he's the first one who has actually got him to bowl a good length.

With all the issues this team has, their fast bowling is not one of them. I’ve read articles about the coaching change, but what was the real reason for this?

 

[Thala_0710]

Carty’s test record is horrible too: 7 tests for an average of 16.78 with a highest score of 42

It's 7 tests only though. My point was, I see more upside in playing him than some guys who I'm sure of can't avg 35+ no matter what

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

In all honesty, West Indies have no excuses for failing to groom a single test batter in the last 10-15 odd years. I really don't have time for excuses about money from the ICC (or lack thereof), decline in talent pool, T20 cricket, troubles with local economy, etc. The last time WI had a proper batter was the great Shivnarine Chanderpaul, but WICB being as devious as they were, he was let go without any proper retirement. Since then, there has been a culture of mediocrity, poor accountability, and no seriousness about playing. In addition, I must ask, do the WICB have a bias against most players not from Barbados? I'm sure there is a lot of talent in Guyana, Antigua, St Vincent, St Lucia, Trinidad, etc. that are bewildered about their lack of chances to play, while some utterly pathetic and useless Bajans like Kraigg Brathwaite, Shai Hope, Roston Chase, etc. keep getting picked only to fail.

And for all the talk about the superiority of T20 cricket in the Caribbean, it doesn't look like even that is shining these days. The CPL is mostly played in front of empty grounds many times, and their T20 side is a shadow of the one that mesmerized us in the 2016 WT20. And let's not even talk about their ODI performance.

I feel really sorry for their bowling attack of Shamar, Seales, Alzarri, Greaves, and Philip. These guys could easily make up among the best bowling units in the world, if not for their batters consistently letting them down.

Only way West Indies gonna get better is to accept they are **** , I don't think the stakeholders realise that yet, you can call Sobers, Lloyd, Richards it's not going to make any difference , the only way WI recovers is through reform, spending money and outsourcing cricket talent from other countries in the interim to assist with the redevelopment of the game . If the WICB is not prepared to do that, it's just window dressing because their problems are bigger than dropping this player for that player.

 

[jaydesh]

I think more West Indian players should consider going to England to play county cricket in order to improve their ability to play the longest form. I understand they have their own domestic first class infrastructure, but if it ever was capable of generating consistent match winners, it isn't now (at least without necessary reforms and funding). The County Championship is still a very respected first class competition worldwide, and is frequented by a lot of international cricketers. It could be an invaluable experience for them, considering how it's helped guys from Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Pakistan, etc. These days, you even see more Indian players there.

 

[Stefan9]

Starc became second fastest to 400 by balls. Massive gap between him and Dale but still a big achievement.

 

[ImpatientLime]

I think more West Indian players should consider going to England to play county cricket in order to improve their ability to play the longest form. I understand they have their own domestic first class infrastructure, but if it ever was capable of generating consistent match winners, it isn't now (at least without necessary reforms and funding). The County Championship is still a very respected first class competition worldwide, and is frequented by a lot of international cricketers. It could be an invaluable experience for them, considering how it's helped guys from Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Pakistan, etc. These days, you even see more Indian players there.

no no no

the issues of governance, coaching levels, facilities and the lack of domestic cricket as a whole are what need fixing before the region can even begin to think about producing batsman of a quality that may interest a county. do you think guys like chase, kevlon anderson, campbell etc would be able to score runs in the county championship? they absolutely would not.

the wicb have made a lot of positive changes in the past few years with well meaning, talented mean like bascombe and shallow on the board. they have overseen great improvements in the equality of west indies womens cricket, the creation of the academy in antigua, the creation of a new domestic t20 comp and so on. however, until the old farts who make money dissapear on the national boards are chased out and replaced by competent stakeholders then nothing will improve.

this sort of nonsense is what all the well meaning cricketing folk in the region are up against.

Police raid Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board head office in missing money probe

Officers of the Special Investigations Unit executed a search warrant at the Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board (TTCB) head office in Balmain, Couva, on May 8, and left with some financial documents that might assist them with a matter concerning a former employee’s misappropriation of funds...

newsroom.gy

 

[jaydesh]

no no no

the issues of governance, coaching levels, facilities and the lack of domestic cricket as a whole are what need fixing before the region can even begin to think about producing batsman of a quality that may interest a county. do you think guys like chase, kevlon anderson, campbell etc would be able to score runs in the county championship? they absolutely would not.

the wicb have made a lot of positive changes in the past few years with well meaning, talented mean like bascombe and shallow on the board. they have overseen great improvements in the equality of west indies womens cricket, the creation of the academy in antigua, the creation of a new domestic t20 comp and so on. however, until the old farts who make money dissapear on the national boards are chased out and replaced by competent stakeholders then nothing will improve.

this sort of nonsense is what all the well meaning cricketing folk in the region are up against.

Police raid Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board head office in missing money probe

Officers of the Special Investigations Unit executed a search warrant at the Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board (TTCB) head office in Balmain, Couva, on May 8, and left with some financial documents that might assist them with a matter concerning a former employee’s misappropriation of funds...

newsroom.gy

Agreed with all those other things. The state of the domestic infrastructure is abysmal, and WICB needs to be held accountable. But county cricket does provide a healthy challenge to a lot of overseas players, and could shape their temperament to play the long format. Even before many of the wholesale changes made by Darren Sammy to the test team (which hasn't worked), you never really had a sense of assurance from the WI test batters. That's where playing in the CC, which has foreign conditions, could be helpful.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Agreed with all those other things. The state of the domestic infrastructure is abysmal, and WICB needs to be held accountable. But county cricket does provide a healthy challenge to a lot of overseas players, and could shape their temperament to play the long format. Even before many of the wholesale changes made by Darren Sammy to the test team (which hasn't worked), you never really had a sense of assurance from the WI test batters. That's where playing in the CC, which has foreign conditions, could be helpful.

my point is, county cricket is not some outreach program. players need to be good enough to warrant selection and none of these guys warrant county gigs.

 

[jaydesh]

my point is, county cricket is not some outreach program. players need to be good enough to warrant selection and none of these guys warrant county gigs.

To be fair, there are quite a lot of pretty bang average foreign players in the CC. Not like they have to be top on form or regulars for their own countries. Plus, the county sides have no incentive to restrict insight of quality international cricketers, especially if it helps their own local talent (not that it's the goal of WI players going there, but it is a side effect). Even before the current Sammy regime, I never felt that the West Indies had the technique to play the long format, especially with the bat. Either they play too much in an attritional manner only to fall in a ditch, or they hit a few boundaries and then get out cheaply. Granted, the WI aren't touring the UK anytime soon (they just went there last year for a 3 match test series), so they won't be able to draw on everything they learn by playing domestic cricket there. But it would benefit them in ironing out at least the basic deficiencies.

 

[WICFan]

President of Cricket West Indies, Dr. Kishore Shallow, has suggested that Head Coach Daren Sammy is facing such intense criticism largely because he is St. Lucian.

 

[Beamer]

That really isn't needed, tbh. Any coach would be getting it in the neck after that batting performance.

 

[Prince EWS]

That really isn't needed, tbh.

Yeah it's a total Daemon.

 

[Skyliner]

If you are 'not good enough' to play County Cricket, you are no way good enough to be a test cricketer, because test cricket is the pinnacle of the sport.
Individuals have to be self-motivated and have some self belief. If you want to be a test cricketer and you want the West Indies system to make you the finished article then you'll end up like the blokes in their current side who are averaging anywhere from 18 to 25. If a County side doesn't want you for their top team then go over and play second 11 cricket and look for an opportunity, or play for a good English club side like Will Young did.

'The ECB Premier Leagues form a strong foundation for top-tier club cricket, with regional leagues feeding into national competitions like the ECB National Club Championship.'

 

[Beamer]

no no no

the issues of governance, coaching levels, facilities and the lack of domestic cricket as a whole are what need fixing before the region can even begin to think about producing batsman of a quality that may interest a county. do you think guys like chase, kevlon anderson, campbell etc would be able to score runs in the county championship? they absolutely would not.

the wicb have made a lot of positive changes in the past few years with well meaning, talented mean like bascombe and shallow on the board. they have overseen great improvements in the equality of west indies womens cricket, the creation of the academy in antigua, the creation of a new domestic t20 comp and so on. however, until the old farts who make money dissapear on the national boards are chased out and replaced by competent stakeholders then nothing will improve.

this sort of nonsense is what all the well meaning cricketing folk in the region are up against.

Police raid Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board head office in missing money probe

Officers of the Special Investigations Unit executed a search warrant at the Trinidad and Tobago Cricket Board (TTCB) head office in Balmain, Couva, on May 8, and left with some financial documents that might assist them with a matter concerning a former employee’s misappropriation of funds...

newsroom.gy

This. Absolutely this. To speak to @social 's earlier post on funding, CWI has to distribute that funding to multiple countries/regions. Most of those are led by old farts who have been in post for years and yet can't even organise tournaments, school cricket programmes or half decent practice facilities. Billy Haven led the JCB for 10 years. Enoch Lewis the LICA since 2017. Condey Riley has been on the BCA board since 1999. You get the picture. They need kicking out and fresh talent from multiple sectors brought in to bring fresh thinking.

CWI is actually well run, I agree. They are trying. But until the territories are forced to reform, things won't change.

 

[Beamer]

If you are 'not good enough' to play County Cricket, you are no way good enough to be a test cricketer, because test cricket is the pinnacle of the sport.
Individuals have to be self-motivated and have some self belief. If you want to be a test cricketer and you want the West Indies system to make you the finished article then you'll end up like the blokes in their current side who are averaging anywhere from 18 to 25. If a County side doesn't want you for their top team then go over and play second 11 cricket and look for an opportunity, or play for a good English club side like Will Young did.

'The ECB Premier Leagues form a strong foundation for top-tier club cricket, with regional leagues feeding into national competitions like the ECB National Club Championship.'

On the not good enough to play county cricket thing, it is mostly, but not completely true. Shai scored runs for Yorkshire and looked a class above, for example. He averages nearly 50 in fc cricket when you take away tests from his record. But for whatever reason, he gets exposed at test level.

 

[Skyliner]

On the not good enough to play county cricket thing, it is mostly, but not completely true. Shai scored runs for Yorkshire and looked a class above, for example. He averages nearly 50 in fc cricket when you take away tests from his record. But for whatever reason, he gets exposed at test level.

Yes, and there are players who just don't make the step up from first class to test cricket as we know. And that doesn't apply to any particular country: Graeme Hick is a prime example - averaged 52.23 in first class cricket but only 31.32 in test cricket.
Then you have blokes who lift their game when in the test arena; Mark Richardson said he felt he could perform at his best in the test arena because you had the best of everything on the international circuit - the best pitches, the best umpires, the best facilities, coaching, support staff etc. So it's an attitude thing as well.

 

[Beamer]

One thing I am grappling with is the importance of pitches and our version of the dukes ball in all of this.

Pre 2017 we had slow low pitches and a kookaburra ball that died after 30 overs. Our bowlers sucked, the batting was actually pretty decent at times, okish at others.

Then we introduce the specially adapted dukes ball and create pitches with more life to help develop pacers. We introduced bonus points for fast bowling wickets into our domestic system. That approach clearly worked, we have had a conveyor belt of skilled seam bowlers who can hold their own against any team since 2018.

But that dukes ball swings more than any other in the world. West Indies becomes the hardest place in the world to bat when you combine the ball with underprepared pitches. Other teams tour and struggle almost as much as we do. You now have people like Travis Head saying their 40 odd felt like a 150 in other places. Lets not forget the highest score and best knock of this series was by a West Indian, not an Australian. Steve Smith looked scared and lost during his 2nd innings and he's and indisputable ATG.

So how much of our batting atrociousness can be attributed to the ball and pitches given everyone's batting sucks when they come here?

If these guys all play against India on even slightly more manageable surfaces, do they suddenly look mediocre not club level?

We have huge, systemic issues with batting, no doubt, but is it as bad as the understandable reaction to this score merits? I don't know.

 

[Beamer]

I might not be recalling correctly, but haven't they done this sort of thing before to little or no avail? It seems to be perennially the case that no one in WI cricket can set aside inter-island politics and just pick the best side. carl Hooper on the radio yesterday was saying they drew in Pakistan last year or something, and then there was a change in team management or something and about half the side which achieved that pretty reasonable result was rissoled.

On this, I actually supported Darren Sammys strategy to encourage white ball talent to play tests. It hasn't worked here, but I thought it was worth a try.

The guys who batted in Australia and Pakistan, also lost horrifically at home in a test against Bangladesh. None of them average more than 25. Against Pakistan,the bowkers scored most of our runs. We won those matches because Jayden snd Shamar are superb bowlers and Warrican and Motie are tidy enough left arm spinners that bowled Pakistan out for not alot.

 

[Beamer]

With all the issues this team has, their fast bowling is not one of them. I’ve read articles about the coaching change, but what was the real reason for this?

They wanted Sammy to bring the white ball players into the fold and liked what he did with the white ball teams. I thought it was a decent enough idea, tbh.

 

[social]

One thing I am grappling with is the importance of pitches and our version of the dukes ball in all of this.

Pre 2017 we had slow low pitches and a kookaburra ball that died after 30 overs. Our bowlers sucked, the batting was actually pretty decent at times, okish at others.

Then we introduce the specially adapted dukes ball and create pitches with more life to help develop pacers. We introduced bonus points for fast bowling wickets into our domestic system. That approach clearly worked, we have had a conveyor belt of skilled seam bowlers who can hold their own against any team since 2018.

But that dukes ball swings more than any other in the world. West Indies becomes the hardest place in the world to bat when you combine the ball with underprepared pitches. Other teams tour and struggle almost as much as we do. You now have people like Travis Head saying their 40 odd felt like a 150 in other places. Lets not forget the highest score and best knock of this series was by a West Indian, not an Australian. Steve Smith looked scared and lost during his 2nd innings and he's and indisputable ATG.

So how much of our batting atrociousness can be attributed to the ball and pitches given everyone's batting sucks when they come here?

If these guys all play against India on even slightly more manageable surfaces, do they suddenly look mediocre not club level?

We have huge, systemic issues with batting, no doubt, but is it as bad as the understandable reaction to this score merits? I don't know.

There’s undoubtedly been an overreaction to the score which is understandable

However, lost in that is the fact that Starc & Boland performed at an unbelievably high level and any team would have struggled to score 100

To put things into perspective, when Broad took 8/15 and Australia were bowled out for 60, the English bowlers delivered one ball that was going to hit the stumps in the entire innings: it was just a succession of edges

Starc & Boland delivered a whole series of sharp/quick moving deliveries with a pink ball at the pegs

Boland’s hattrick deliveries would have gotten most people out

Obviously the batting isn’t great and this is hopefully the nadir but it really was a combination of factors and not just Windies terrible