Your ATG team pace bowling trio

[Coronis]

Like I’ve said previously, it all comes down to perceived gaps in the bowling ability. And some people can’t get their heads around the fact that other people have a different idea of those gaps.

 

[subshakerz]

Like I’ve said previously, it all comes down to perceived gaps in the bowling ability. And some people can’t get their heads around the fact that other people have a different idea of those gaps.

Yes. To present it like some huge gap between the top ten pacers is where Kyear is constantly strawmanning.

 

[Bolo.]

Just rejoined this thread but I'm going to assume you're including batting. Because bowling wise, Marshall is slightly ahead of Hadlee (or at worse equal) but distinctly better than Imran.

As bowlers, I have Hadlee slightly ahead of Marshall. But very much same tier.

Both are distinctly ahead of Imran as bowlers. But the gap isn't as big as some make out.

I can understand the bat deep reasoning for picking someone like Hadlee due to no decrease in bowling ability over others.
But I do question it when you're picking Imran over Marshall. You are losing some bowling potency which is the bowlers job first and foremost.
Marshall was no mug with the bat either, averaging 18.85.
Is that ~14 extra runs Imran averaged with the bat (during his bowling peak) worth that drop in bowling quality?

I pick all 3. They are the three best players, and an attack that complements each other extremely well. I don't see them as competing for a spot. To drop any of them, you have to make big sacrifices in some combination of bowling quality/batting quality/variety. Without much as compensation.

But I do reckon Marshall is clearly not as good a player as the other two.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

As bowlers, I have Hadlee slightly ahead of Marshall. But very much same tier.

Both are distinctly ahead of Imran as bowlers. But the gap isn't as big as some make out.

I pick all 3. They are the three best players, and an attack that complements each other extremely well. I don't see them as competing for a spot. To drop any of them, you have to make big sacrifices in some combination of bowling quality/batting quality/variety. Without much as compensation.

But I do reckon Marshall is clearly not as good a player as the other two.

Well yeah, agreed Marshall is behind both as overall players. Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Cipher]

IIRC Imran was averaging lower than Marshall during his bowling peak in the 80s. So it's not like there was a huge gap between Marshall and Imran at their peaks. Marshall was arguably better than any other fast bowler but that doesn't mean that other bowlers were any sort of mugs and that having Marshall in your side would give the team some sort of cheat mode. The WI side was already great when Marshall came into the side and they had a bunch of great bowlers who allowed them to win even without him.

My point being that the top 10 bowlers are fairly close in ability to each other. A 14 run difference in batting average is huge.

Interestingly Marshall makes my side precisely because he wasn't a meme tailender unlike McGrath and being comparable in quality.

That's fair enough if you're basing it off averages and yes Imran is certainly no mug.
I do think that Marshall's skill meant that he would be more likely to get a top class batsman out & early on for a low score.
If you dig into the batters dismissed records he did have that knack. But it's hard to quantify the chance of a wicket for a bowler over another.
We do know there are bowlers that are better at getting the best out vs others who do well against the tail e.g. McGrath vs Akram.
Not saying Imran wasn't able to get out the best, just that Marshall may have been a tad better at it.
e.g. If Marshall is able to get a 50+ average batsman out for cheap where Khan may not, that's immediately made up for the difference in their batting averages. But I can appreciate not everyone sees or agrees with that difference in ATG bowlers.

I also pick Warne ahead of Murali because Warne was a significantly better batsman.

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne

Great bowling lineup, no issue there

 

[Cipher]

I pick all 3. They are the three best players, and an attack that complements each other extremely well. I don't see them as competing for a spot. To drop any of them, you have to make big sacrifices in some combination of bowling quality/batting quality/variety. Without much as compensation.

But I do reckon Marshall is clearly not as good a player as the other two.

Fair & agreed regarding complimentary bowling styles. I thought you might have been excluding Marshall outright for a lesser bowler & I assumed it wasn't McGrath (given his batting). So I was scratching my head on why you omitted him.

As a cricketer yes, the other two are better due to their batting skills. All depends on how you view team selection after that

 

[subshakerz]

That's fair enough if you're basing it off averages and yes Imran is certainly no mug.
I do think that Marshall's skill meant that he would be more likely to get a top class batsman out & early on for a low score.
If you dig into the batters dismissed records he did have that knack. But it's hard to quantify the chance of a wicket for a bowler over another.
We do know there are bowlers that are better at getting the best out vs others who do well against the tail e.g. McGrath vs Akram.
Not saying Imran wasn't able to get out the best, just that Marshall may have been a tad better at it.
e.g. If Marshall is able to get a 50+ average batsman out for cheap where Khan may not, that's immediately made up for the difference in their batting averages. But I can appreciate not everyone sees or agrees with that difference in ATG bowlers.

Where are you getting that? Imran generally faced stronger lineups than Marshall did and more frequently.

 

[subshakerz]

Both are distinctly ahead of Imran as bowlers. But the gap isn't as big as some make out.

@kyear2 refuses to acknowledge this point despite so many of us making it clear to him.

He goes to the extent of faking his ATG XIs to consider Imran worth a third ATG XI spot.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Where are you getting that? Imran generally faced stronger lineups than Marshall did and more frequently.

He faced stronger attacks? Where? WI? Thats the only team Imran faced that Malcolm didn't and couldn't.

 

[subshakerz]

He faced stronger attacks? Where? WI? Thats the only team Imran faced that Malcolm didn't and couldn't.

Imran faced WI of course, strong lineup.

Imrna faced the strong Aussie lineups of the 70s and early 80s. Marshall generally faced weaker Aussie lineups of the mid 80s with the exception of the early 90s one in one series.

Both Imran and Marshall faced the strong Indian lineup of Gavaskar, Vengsarkar and Vishwanath but Imran faced them more frequently.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Imran faced WI of course, strong lineup.

Imrna faced the strong Aussie lineups of the 70s and early 80s. Marshall generally faced weaker Aussie lineups of the mid 80s with the exception of the early 90s one in one series.

Both Imran and Marshall faced the strong Indian lineup of Gavaskar, Vengsarkar and Vishwanath but Imran faced them much more frequently, Marshall only did in one series, Imran three.

Subsy now let's not start spreading lies. Marshall faced the Indian trio above in his debut series, then in '83 home and away he faced Gavaskar, Armanath, and Vengsarkar. From Pakistan late 80s/early 90s he faced Shoaib Mohammed, Salim, Javed and Imran. You also mentioned later strong Aussie lineups of the late 80s. I dont see any weak batting there. If anything, Imran was the one of the two who faced the weakest batting of their era ie Sri Lanka and that too over 10 tests. Something Marshall never did.

 

[subshakerz]

Subsy now let's not start spreading lies. Marshall faced the Indian trio above in his debut series, then in '83 home and away he faced Gavaskar, Armanath, and Vengsarkar. From Pakistan late 80s/early 90s he faced Shoaib Mohammed, Salim, Javed and Imran. You also mentioned later strong Aussie lineups of the late 80s. I dont see any weak batting there. If anything, Imran was the one of the two who faced the weakest batting of their era ie Sri Lanka and that too over 10 tests. Something Marshall never did.

I corrected on India before you posted a reply but Imran still played that lineup more. And more strong Aussie sides and of course WI.

Pakistan in the mid 80s onwards wasn't a particularly strong batting lineup sorry.

So I don't see any lie in saying Imran generally faced more strong lineups more regularly in his career, which doesn't change by facing SL too which I don't deny. And this all was in response to that post earlier giving the impression that Imran wasn't as successful against top bats.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I corrected on India before you posted a reply but Imran still played that lineup more. And more strong Aussie sides and of course WI.

Pakistan in the mid 80s onwards wasn't a particularly strong batting lineup sorry.

So I don't see any lie in saying Imran generally faced more strong lineups more regularly in his career, which doesn't change by facing SL too which I don't deny. And this all was in response to that post earlier giving the impression that Imran wasn't as successful against top bats.

He was successful and was great but let's not give anyone the impression there was a huge gulf between the attacks Imran and Marshall generally faced.

 

[smash84]

Incidentally SL were minnows mainly because of their bowling not because of their batting. Their first generation of batsmen were actually fairly decent.

Aravinda, Ranatunga, gurusinha, Roy dias etc

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Incidentally SL were minnows mainly because of their bowling not because of their batting. Their first generation of batsmen were actually fairly decent.

Aravinda, Ranatunga, gurusinha, Roy dias etc

They weren't Bangladesh levels minnows but they were a step down from the other 6 teams at the time.

 

[smash84]

They weren't Bangladesh levels minnows but they were a step down from the other 6 teams at the time.

Batting wise they'd probably be comparable to 80s Australia and New Zealand. I cbf looking up the averages but the batsmen I mentioned are solid batsmen.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Batting wise they'd probably be comparable to 80s Australia and New Zealand. I cbf looking up the averages but the batsmen I mentioned are solid batsmen.

Nz maybe but sure as hell not Australia. In the 80s Australia at least had players like Border, Wessels and Dean Jones.

 

[subshakerz]

He was successful and was great but let's not give anyone the impression there was a huge gulf between the attacks Imran and Marshall generally faced.

Not a huge gulf but Imran definitely faced tougher lineups more often.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Not a huge gulf but Imran definitely faced tougher lineups more often.

Can I ask two things, how did Imran do vs the tougher attacks he faced home and away. Also, what was Imran's peak period as a bowler in your opinion?

 

[Cipher]

Where are you getting that? Imran generally faced stronger lineups than Marshall did and more frequently.

Slifer's already answered this but if we compare them during the 80's & remove WI & Sri Lanka from Imran's record (which is fair because Marshall didn't play against them), Marshall has a better average in the same period.
It's arguable that Imran did bowl to a slightly better Australian batting lineup earlier on but for a bit of context he only bowled in 3 games in Australia during the 80's. Both of them bowled to Border, Hughes, Wood & Dyson (4 out of 6 batsmen in the early to mid 80's). Greg Chappell was of course the main difference for Khan. Marshall played India only 3 games less & performed much better against them.

But when I claimed Marshall was better at getting out top order batsman it wasn't about his averages, it was about specific batsman he was dismissing. He got out Gavaskar more cheaply, Border more often, Vengsarkar the same amount from 2 matches less. He got Kim Hughes out 5 times from 8 matches compared to Khan's 3 from 12 matches. He also got Martin Crowe out whereas Khan could not in any format.

I'm sure there are batsman that Khan bowled better to than Marshall but when I see that he got better results against recognised batsman out of respective teams (Gavaskar, Border, Hughes etc.) & also got good batsman such as Gooch & Boon out quite often that's why I think he was better at getting the best out a little bit more.