Your ATG team pace bowling trio

[honestbharani]

McGrath also got completely owned by NZ in 2001/02 taking 5 wickets @ 65.4 (s/r 140).
He was left just bowling really wide of off stump (clear white ball wides) to prevent defeat in the 1st test. Due to poor umpiring in the 3rd test Australia escaped with a 0-0 draw.

I remember watching this series almost fully and I agree. It was an awesome series and perhaps the best NZ had played before the 3-0 in India last year. Even their WTC win was not that impressive for me.

 

[Coronis]

I remember watching this series almost fully and I agree. It was an awesome series and perhaps the best NZ had played before the 3-0 in India last year. Even their WTC win was not that impressive for me.

ofc not, it was only against India

 

[Xix2565]

Went with McGrath/Hadlee/Imran though you could persuade me to replace one or two for Marshall/Steyn.

 

[honestbharani]

ofc not, it was only against India

Haha. But seriously.

Even FP would agree that they had plenty of luck going their way making that finals and then it happening in England and them getting to play 2 tests there before that series etc.

But more pertinently, I think that 00 series against Aus and the 24 series in India were the best test cricket I have seen a NZ team play. Its awesome they could win a WTC without having to play at that level tbh.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not the so much better, it's that he's better, at least from mine and the perspectives of quite a few others. I'm not factoring in batting for my opening bowler, and certainly not when allied to the gentleman who will be batting at no. 11.

Imaginary tier? Like any of them aren't?

He was the primary reason as to why Australia is a candidate for the greatest team of all time. When he's missing, the team just isn't that. Period.

From a bowling perspective he compliments Marshall more, much more actually. He did have a knack for removing top order batsmen and the best from the opposition and along with Marshall, Ambrose and by some metrics Davidson, the best ever new ball bowlers at the top of the innings.

He also has experiences in flatter conditions and no one utilized bounce or paired it with metronomic accuracy like he did.

If he's very arguably the 2nd greatest bowler ever, where's the argument.

No one during the '80's even picked Hadlee over Lillee and he couldn't bat either. Martin Crowe played in the same team as Hadlee and he selected Lillee, Marshall and Wasim ahead of him in his first team.

Your primary skills is to bowl. And again, this is a team with the greatest batters of all time, surely you can focus on the bowling.

I think you have to explain why with McGrath and Hadlees bowling so close, you choose to ignore Hadlees batting.

In my case, it's because I have Imran at no.8 already so I don't need Hadlees runs as much.

What's your excuse? You literally said before you are fine with a tail or pure tailenders even if Wasim etc. cant bat at all. You need to justify it.

 

[Cipher]

It's not the so much better, it's that he's better, at least from mine and the perspectives of quite a few others. I'm not factoring in batting for my opening bowler, and certainly not when allied to the gentleman who will be batting at no. 11.

Imaginary tier? Like any of them aren't?

He was the primary reason as to why Australia is a candidate for the greatest team of all time. When he's missing, the team just isn't that. Period.

From a bowling perspective he compliments Marshall more, much more actually. He did have a knack for removing top order batsmen and the best from the opposition and along with Marshall, Ambrose and by some metrics Davidson, the best ever new ball bowlers at the top of the innings.

He also has experiences in flatter conditions and no one utilized bounce or paired it with metronomic accuracy like he did.

If he's very arguably the 2nd greatest bowler ever, where's the argument.

No one during the '80's even picked Hadlee over Lillee and he couldn't bat either. Martin Crowe played in the same team as Hadlee and he selected Lillee, Marshall and Wasim ahead of him in his first team.

Your primary skills is to bowl. And again, this is a team with the greatest batters of all time, surely you can focus on the bowling.

What's your opinion on bowling pairings? Obviously it's easier when the guy at the other end is keeping the pressure on but how much do contrasting styles matter? As an example would Ambrose & Akram outperform two Hadlee's?

 

[subshakerz]

What's your opinion on bowling pairings? Obviously it's easier when the guy at the other end is keeping the pressure on but how much do contrasting styles matter? As an example would Ambrose & Akram outperform two Hadlee's?

Quite important to have contrasting bowlers. The most effective bowling attacks in history all had that.

 

[Bolo.]

Exactly.

Plus McGrath did it in a more difficult era, McGrath has a substantially higher peer rating, was the undeniably best bowler of his era, while Hadlee was behind at least 2 if not 3 if his, and finally....

Why choose 3 bowlers from the same era. No one is choosing 3 batsmen from the 30's / 40's nor 2000's.

But yeah, Marshall and McGrath perfectly compliment each other with McGrath's height and bounce, seam, unmatched accuracy and continued domination into the flat era acts as his differentiators and seals it for me. The fact that he's cricket's version of Brady or Bill Russell makes him all but undeniable.

As great as the team was, when he was absent, the team didn't win.

Either trust quality the 80s and play Imran and Hadlee, or don't. In which case Marshall has to go first. I like his variety, but Imran and Hadlee are just too far ahead.

 

[kyear2]

What's your opinion on bowling pairings? Obviously it's easier when the guy at the other end is keeping the pressure on but how much do contrasting styles matter? As an example would Ambrose & Akram outperform two Hadlee's?

Pairings matter.

Like an Ambrose and Steyn pairing would be intriguing as all hell, and I think would pise more issues than two Hadlee's.

To me, Marshall, McGrath and Wasim just brings so much to the thale and it's so drastically different.

 

[subshakerz]

Pairings matter.

Like an Ambrose and Steyn pairing would be intriguing as all hell, and I think would pise more issues than two Hadlee's.

To me, Marshall, McGrath and Wasim just brings so much to the thale and it's so drastically different.

Ambrose to me would be a very good third seamer. Steyn and Hadlee with the new ball, great contrast.

 

[subshakerz]

Either trust quality the 80s and play Imran and Hadlee, or don't. In which case Marshall has to go first. I like his variety, but Imran and Hadlee are just too far ahead.

@kyear2 by his own admission falsified his own ATG XIs to not include Imran. He will look for any excuse to not include him.

 

[kyear2]

Either trust quality the 80s and play Imran and Hadlee, or don't. In which case Marshall has to go first. I like his variety, but Imran and Hadlee are just too far ahead.

What?

This is the ultimate straw man argument.

Yeah, if we're getting rid of bowlers from the era, let's start with the one rated as the highest.

You mention Imran, but from the combined 70's and 80's he's clearly behind Marshall, Lillee, Hadlee and quite frequently Holding.

You're selecting arguably the 5th best bowler of not all time, but of a particular era?

And this is before you select the best bowler of subsequent ones? Who by the way are clearly better than he is?

Who does that?

As I said, the same way I'm not selecting all of my batsmen from an era, why would I do that for the bowlers?

The over rating of lower order batting that is pervasive around a few here, to the point where it's the primary consideration of selection is ridiculously misguided.

 

[Starfighter]

Steyn and Hadlee with the new ball, great contrast.

I'd have said the opposite actually, that they've got a similar style, both being outswing bowlers of moderate height.

 

[subshakerz]

I'd have said the opposite actually, that they've got a similar style, both being outswing bowlers of moderate height.

Hmm that's true. Hadlee more tight though.

 

[subshakerz]

The over rating of lower order batting that is pervasive around a few here, to the point where it's the primary consideration of selection is ridiculously misguided.

Strawman. Don't know how many times you have repeated this.

We don't see the bowling gaps like you do.

 

[Bolo.]

What?

This is the ultimate straw man argument.

Yeah, if we're getting rid of bowlers from the era, let's start with the one rated as the highest.

You mention Imran, but from the combined 70's and 80's he's clearly behind Marshall, Lillee, Hadlee and quite frequently Holding.

You're selecting arguably the 5th best bowler of not all time, but of a particular era?

And this is before you select the best bowler of subsequent ones? Who by the way are clearly better than he is?

Who does that?

As I said, the same way I'm not selecting all of my batsmen from an era, why would I do that for the bowlers?

The over rating of lower order batting that is pervasive around a few here, to the point where it's the primary consideration of selection is ridiculously misguided.

If we are getting rid of players from the era, let's start with the two rated the highest? They are both excellent, and offer ideal skills.

I rate Hadlee as the GOAT quick. Leaving him out would still be fine by me if he just offered bowling, but he doesn't. Downgrading him to the point where him as a package doesn't get him in would require looking at his era very unfavourably. Which we would need to do for Marshall as well.

We pick bats from different eras because we reckon the best ones come from different eras. If there were a couple of 70 averaging bats from a respectable bowling era, I'd be picking them. And that's the situation for Imran and Hadlee.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Either trust quality the 80s and play Imran and Hadlee, or don't. In which case Marshall has to go first. I like his variety, but Imran and Hadlee are just too far ahead.

Just rejoined this thread but I'm going to assume you're including batting. Because bowling wise, Marshall is slightly ahead of Hadlee (or at worse equal) but distinctly better than Imran.

 

[Cipher]

Either trust quality the 80s and play Imran and Hadlee, or don't. In which case Marshall has to go first. I like his variety, but Imran and Hadlee are just too far ahead.

I can understand the bat deep reasoning for picking someone like Hadlee due to no decrease in bowling ability over others.
But I do question it when you're picking Imran over Marshall. You are losing some bowling potency which is the bowlers job first and foremost.
Marshall was no mug with the bat either, averaging 18.85.
Is that ~14 extra runs Imran averaged with the bat (during his bowling peak) worth that drop in bowling quality?

 

[smash84]

I can understand the bat deep reasoning for picking someone like Hadlee due to no decrease in bowling ability over others.
But I do question it when you're picking Imran over Marshall. You are losing some bowling potency which is the bowlers job first and foremost.
Marshall was no mug with the bat either, averaging 18.85.
Is that ~14 extra runs Imran averaged with the bat (during his bowling peak) worth that drop in bowling quality?

IIRC Imran was averaging lower than Marshall during his bowling peak in the 80s. So it's not like there was a huge gap between Marshall and Imran at their peaks. Marshall was arguably better than any other fast bowler but that doesn't mean that other bowlers were any sort of mugs and that having Marshall in your side would give the team some sort of cheat mode. The WI side was already great when Marshall came into the side and they had a bunch of great bowlers who allowed them to win even without him.

My point being that the top 10 bowlers are fairly close in ability to each other. A 14 run difference in batting average is huge.

Interestingly Marshall makes my side precisely because he wasn't a meme tailender unlike McGrath and being comparable in quality.

 

[smash84]

I also pick Warne ahead of Murali because Warne was a significantly better batsman.

Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne