Revisiting 80s WI vs 2000s Aus

[BazBall21]

WI around 1979-1981 still had Kallicharran, Viv was at his peak and Holding/Garner/Roberts/Croft were all world class.

1984 has the Marshall factor, Greenidge at the peak of his powers, ATGs Holding/Garner still going strong and Lloyd aged like fine wine.

 

[subshakerz]

WI around 1979-1981 still had Kallicharran, Viv was at his peak and Holding/Garner/Roberts/Croft were all world class.

1984 has the Marshall factor, Greenidge at the peak of his powers, ATGs Holding/Garner still going strong and Lloyd aged like fine wine.

I think the 79 side was stronger because they destroyed a strong Aussie side at home and the relative weak link Roberts was still much better than Walsh.

 

[BazBall21]

I think the 79 side was stronger because they destroyed a strong Aussie side at home and the relative weak link Roberts was still much better than Walsh.

Either way, I think WI's attack is just too good.

 

[Migara]

WI will attack McGrath and Warne though. They had that type of batting lineup.

I can think of Viv and Lloyd doing so. Geenidge was good against pace. Richardson was good, Warne had his times against him. I havent seen Kallicharran play, but I have heard he was excellent against spin. But other than for Viv, most of the others had trouble against Hadlee. McGrath can easily replicate that.

You guys are really underestimating McGrath and Warne. 80s only seen one or two bowlers who was as good as McGrath (Imran and Hadlee). They have not seen anyone like Warne (when conditions helped a Qadir scythed through WI, and unlike Qadir we expect Warne to be good on even non spinning wickets). One side of the coin is that 2000 Aussies have rarely played a good attack as 80 WI. Other side of the coin is that 80s WI have also rarely played bowlers as good as McGrath and especially Warne.

 

[Coronis]

I can think of Viv and Lloyd doing so. Geenidge was good against pace. Richardson was good, Warne had his times against him. I havent seen Kallicharran play, but I have heard he was excellent against spin. But other than for Viv, most of the others had trouble against Hadlee. McGrath can easily replicate that.

You guys are really underestimating McGrath and Warne. 80s only seen one or two bowlers who was as good as McGrath (Imran and Hadlee). They have not seen anyone like Warne (when conditions helped a Qadir scythed through WI, and unlike Qadir we expect Warne to be good on even non spinning wickets). One side of the coin is that 2000 Aussies have rarely played a good attack as 80 WI. Other side of the coin is that 80s WI have also rarely played bowlers as good as McGrath and especially Warne.

You’d also say they never faced a batting lineup anywhere close to that one.

 

[Migara]

Likewise, if by some miracle Australia saw off Marshall and Holding, the next bowler up for all intents and purposes is an upgraded Ambrose aka Joel Garner. And we know how Australia faired against Curtly. Matter of fact, we know how Warne did vs contemporary WI teams; he had some very good series but overall didn't dominate them.

WI had Lara, Hooper and Chanders in that era. And that is some damn fine spin playing group. There was a time between Lloyd and Lara there was only Viv and Hooper.

We can argue on this on many aspects. But it is unmistakable fact is that when conditions suited Qadir destroyed WI. Warne is a major upgrade to Qadir.

 

[subshakerz]

WI had Lara, Hooper and Chanders in that era. And that is some damn fine spin playing group. There was a time between Lloyd and Lara there was only Viv and Hooper.

We can argue on this on many aspects. But it is unmistakable fact is that when conditions suited Qadir destroyed WI. Warne is a major upgrade to Qadir.

Unfortunately if it's 2000s then conditions won't help Warne.

 

[Migara]

You’d also say they never faced a batting lineup anywhere close to that one.

Indian batting line up on Indian pitches is way stronger than WI. There were no weak links. Australian attack did alright against them. If Warne didn't get destroyed would have been different. WI nowhere close to that Indian lineup in spin playing ability

 

[Coronis]

Indian batting line up on Indian pitches is way stronger than WI. There were no weak links. Australian attack did alright against them. If Warne didn't get destroyed would have been different. WI nowhere close to that Indian lineup in spin playing ability

I meant Windies attack never faced a batting lineup like Aus lol

 

[BazBall21]

I meant Windies attack never faced a batting lineup like Aus lol

4 ATG quicks all in their prime is a big ask for anyone human.

The key for Australia would be Warne. Obviously McGrath would go very well but Warne is the POD and while WI had some very good players of leg spin they weren't plain sailing against it like some Indian batting lineups have been.

 

[subshakerz]

4 ATG quicks all in their prime is a big ask for anyone human.

The key for Australia would be Warne. Obviously McGrath would go very well but Warne is the POD and while WI had some very good players of leg spin they weren't plain sailing against it like some Indian batting lineups have been.

Warne in the 2000s averaged over 30 at home so it depends when they play him.

 

[BazBall21]

Warne in the 2000s averaged over 30 at home so it depends when they play him.

Australia need a traditional Trinidad/Sydney type surface. And WI would still have the smaller matter of probably the least condition dependent bowler ever.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Indian batting line up on Indian pitches is way stronger than WI. There were no weak links. Australian attack did alright against them. If Warne didn't get destroyed would have been different. WI nowhere close to that Indian lineup in spin playing ability

Yes but on the other hand, I'd expect WI to handle Australian pace better than the Indians did, especially in Australia. And again, Warne didn't dominate contemporary WI teams, he'd be facing 70s/80s WI teams with Viv, Lloyd and Kallicharan etc who were all adept vs spin. And he'd get assistance in Sydney but that's it. He'd get absolutely no assistance from WI wickets. You mention Qadir but he was very good at home vs WI but absolutely useless away (not just in the Caribbean). Warne being an upgrade of true but he'd fair similarly imo especially in the WI.

How is it you give credence to how WI of the 80s had issues with Qadir but don't do the same with Warne and his contemporary performances vs WI?

 

[Migara]

Yes but on the other hand, I'd expect WI to handle Australian pace better than the Indians did, especially in Australia. And again, Warne didn't dominate contemporary WI teams, he'd be facing 70s/80s WI teams with Viv, Lloyd and Kallicharan etc who were all adept vs spin. And he'd get assistance in Sydney but that's it. He'd get absolutely no assistance from WI wickets. You mention Qadir but he was very good at home vs WI but absolutely useless away (not just in the Caribbean). Warne being an upgrade of true but he'd fair similarly imo especially in the WI.

How is it you give credence to how WI of the 80s had issues with Qadir but don't do the same with Warne and his contemporary performances vs WI?

70s WI teams had a significantly weaker fast bowling lineup than Aus 0f 2000s. It was very late 70s and early to mid 80s they had Marshall, Garner and Holding in peak. Then Marshall waned, Ambrose and Walsh took on. So it is a very limited time where three pacemen of great quality played for them. During that time most of their batting greats other than Viv was on wane. Australia where McGrath and Warne had a single decade long plateau of excellence and a batting lineup at their peak. If you pick WI team from mid 70s to 90 and Aussie team mid 90s to 2005, Australian team had way more peak performers than WI, if you examine the team at random time stamps. But then if you want to compare peak teams, that is a different kettle of fish.

I would not count on that. Murali absolutely destroyed WI in the 1997 tour and spun it square on the so called "graveyard of spinners". IIRC he took 5/34 in no time.

Obviously I rate later WI teams better in playing spin. Especially the trio of any three of Lara, Sarwan, Chanders and Hooper. Even then, the rest were utterly horrible against spin.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

WI 84:
Haynes
Greenidge
Viv
Richardson
Lloyd
Golmes
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Walsh

Aus 2001:
Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Mark Waugh
Steve Waugh
Martyn
Gilly
Warne
Lee
Gillespie
McGrath

The NZ side dominated and should've beaten Australia in Australia in 2001 as @TheJediBrah often concedes (Australia escaping with a fortunate 0-0 draw thanks to bad umpiring), so perhaps this thread should be 1980s West Indies v 2001 NZ.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The NZ side dominated and should've beaten Australia in Australia in 2001 as @TheJediBrah often concedes (Australia escaping with a fortunate 0-0 draw thanks to bad umpiring), so perhaps this thread should be 1980s West Indies v 2001 NZ.

Well, we actually Won in 2001.....

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Well, we actually Won in 2001.....

Very true. Inspired coaching by John Wright...

(joke)

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Perhaps 2001 isn't the best year to compare for Australia

 

[capt_Luffy]

Very true. Inspired coaching by John Wright...

(joke)

Seriously though, the amount of players Wright scouted for India can't be understated. Sehwag, Yuvraj, Harbhajan, Zaheer..... And while at MI Hardik, SKY and ofcourse Bumrah himself.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

70s WI teams had a significantly weaker fast bowling lineup than Aus 0f 2000s. It was very late 70s and early to mid 80s they had Marshall, Garner and Holding in peak. Then Marshall waned, Ambrose and Walsh took on. So it is a very limited time where three pacemen of great quality played for them. During that time most of their batting greats other than Viv was on wane. Australia where McGrath and Warne had a single decade long plateau of excellence and a batting lineup at their peak. If you pick WI team from mid 70s to 90 and Aussie team mid 90s to 2005, Australian team had way more peak performers than WI, if you examine the team at random time stamps. But then if you want to compare peak teams, that is a different kettle of fish.

I would not count on that. Murali absolutely destroyed WI in the 1997 tour and spun it square on the so called "graveyard of spinners". IIRC he took 5/34 in no time.

Obviously I rate later WI teams better in playing spin. Especially the trio of any three of Lara, Sarwan, Chanders and Hooper. Even then, the rest were utterly horrible against spin.

Late 70s WI had: Roberts, Holding, Garner and any of Croft/Clarke/Daniels. And several played played enough tests together all in relatively good form.

Hooper , Chanderpaul, and Sarwan better players of spin than Kallicharan or Lloyd? No. And you have yet to address Warne's middling record vs contemporary WI teams he faced. You go on and on about how WI struggled vs Qadir (huge exaggeration) but won't address how Warne was far from great vs his WI teams.