Debate thread for 2024 ranking of bowlers poll

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah but this might be balanced out by runs being scored more quickly though. Could the lesser balls required to get the same score mean a lesser chance for the unplayable ball to hit you when on a lower score. It's a paradox imo.

How is it a paradox? It's just a difference

whether or not it's improved or deteriorated is subjective

 

[Socerer 01]

The percentage of dismissals to poor/limited over shots is far greater now.

what

 

[Line and Length]

I thought I'd provide an illustration as to why I'm reticent to vote for current players. Who knows what their figures will be like in a decade or so when they retire?
On our current poll, Bumrah polled strongly to sneak into the Top 30. There's no denying his 159 wickets @ 20.7 mount a strong case despite playing just 36 Tests.
By contrast, Ian Botham has barely warranted a mention, but imagine if his career was just judged on his first 36 games. 171 wickets @ 21.3 is impressive but we all are aware of his later career.
Bumrah is rated as the better bowler of the two but there is little difference if we compare early Bumrah (now) with early Botham.

 

[Socerer 01]

I thought I'd provide an illustration as to why I'm reticent to vote for current players. Who knows what their figures will be like in a decade or so when they retire?
On our current poll, Bumrah polled strongly to sneak into the Top 30. There's no denying his 159 wickets @ 20.7 mount a strong case despite playing just 36 Tests.
By contrast, Ian Botham has barely warranted a mention, but imagine if his career was just judged on his first 36 games. 171 wickets @ 21.3 is impressive but we all are aware of his later career.
Bumrah is rated as the better bowler of the two but there is little difference if we compare early Bumrah (now) with early Botham.

the best solution to this would be to make active players ineligible or at least make the ones who are under a certain age threshold ineligible if you want someone like Anderson to be considered since most of his career is done anyway

 

[TheJediBrah]

the best solution to this would be to make active players ineligible or at least make the ones who are under a certain age threshold ineligible if you want someone like Anderson to be considered since most of his career is done anyway

So we're going to a top-200?

 

[kyear2]

the best solution to this would be to make active players ineligible or at least make the ones who are under a certain age threshold ineligible if you want someone like Anderson to be considered since most of his career is done anyway

And Smith definitely

 

[Sunil1z]

I thought I'd provide an illustration as to why I'm reticent to vote for current players. Who knows what their figures will be like in a decade or so when they retire?
On our current poll, Bumrah polled strongly to sneak into the Top 30. There's no denying his 159 wickets @ 20.7 mount a strong case despite playing just 36 Tests.
By contrast, Ian Botham has barely warranted a mention, but imagine if his career was just judged on his first 36 games. 171 wickets @ 21.3 is impressive but we all are aware of his later career.
Bumrah is rated as the better bowler of the two but there is little difference if we compare early Bumrah (now) with early Botham.

Say , Bumrah doesn’t do well in next 2 years and you run your poll in 2026 , I am sure his ranking will come down . This is not the last and final Bowlers ranking poll we are having.
Atleast we can compare every 2 years how his or any other current players ratings has gone up or down .

 

[Bolo.]

.

I thought I'd provide an illustration as to why I'm reticent to vote for current players. Who knows what their figures will be like in a decade or so when they retire?
On our current poll, Bumrah polled strongly to sneak into the Top 30. There's no denying his 159 wickets @ 20.7 mount a strong case despite playing just 36 Tests.
By contrast, Ian Botham has barely warranted a mention, but imagine if his career was just judged on his first 36 games. 171 wickets @ 21.3 is impressive but we all are aware of his later career.
Bumrah is rated as the better bowler of the two but there is little difference if we compare early Bumrah (now) with early Botham.

Meh.

I also don't agree with rating bumrah this high due to his limited number of games. But I don't think he should be compared to botham. Bumrah is probably the best bowler I can remember watching. I've heard a lot of people describe Botham's peak numbers as better than his performances. Bumrah looks at least as good as his stupid numbers.

And Botham has a proven record of failure ouside of his peak.

FTR, I still think Botham had a better career for now.

 

[Socerer 01]

And Smith definitely

he’s another where a year or two of poor performances as opener would make many here put him further down their rankings

 

[ma1978]

I thought I'd provide an illustration as to why I'm reticent to vote for current players. Who knows what their figures will be like in a decade or so when they retire?
On our current poll, Bumrah polled strongly to sneak into the Top 30. There's no denying his 159 wickets @ 20.7 mount a strong case despite playing just 36 Tests.
By contrast, Ian Botham has barely warranted a mention, but imagine if his career was just judged on his first 36 games. 171 wickets @ 21.3 is impressive but we all are aware of his later career.
Bumrah is rated as the better bowler of the two but there is little difference if we compare early Bumrah (now) with early Botham.

The trouble with the Botham example is he’s such an anomaly. His aggregate figures suggest a ATG all rounder, but the reality is he spent the first third of his career on track to be the greatest cricketer of all time and the remaining two thirds, solidly below average and justifying his selection only on reputation. I can’t think of any other cricketer with that sort of extreme dichotomy.

 

[Line and Length]

Say , Bumrah doesn’t do well in next 2 years and you run your poll in 2026 , I am sure his ranking will come down . This is not the last and final Bowlers ranking poll we are having.
Atleast we can compare every 2 years how his or any other current players ratings has gone up or down .

Fair comment. I was just explaining my reluctance to rank current players.

 

[kyear2]

he’s another where a year or two of poor performances as opener would make many here put him further down their rankings

Think his legacy as a top 8 batsman is locked in. Most movement at this point would be between what, 4 and 8?

 

[ma1978]

Think his legacy as a top 8 batsman is locked in. Most movement at this point would be between what, 4 and 8?

bradman
hobbs
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Richards
Hutton
Chappell
Hammond
Headley
Gavaskar

people who you “could” make an argument are ahead of Smith, and that’s just off the top of my head. You could also make the other argument.

it’s the definitiveness of your statement that he’s top 8 that’s troublesome

 

[Sunil1z]

bradman
hobbs
Tendulkar
Lara
Sobers
Richards
Hutton
Chappell
Hammond
Headley
Gavaskar

people who you “could” make an argument are ahead of Smith, and that’s just off the top of my head. You could also make the other argument.

it’s the definitiveness of your statement that he’s top 8 that’s troublesome

Chappell, Headley and Hammond are not better than Smith . Only reason I am not including Gavaskar is because he was opener and Smith’s performance as opener has been underwhelming.

 

[ma1978]

Chappell, Headley and Hammond are not better than Smith . Only reason I am not including Gavaskar is because he was opener and Smith’s performance as opener has been underwhelming.

you can make a strong argument that all of them are better than Smith, and the opposite argument

 

[Sunil1z]

you can make a strong argument that all of them are better than Smith, and the opposite argument

I will start with one . How is Chappell better than Smith ?
Guy was never Tested against quality spin in his career like Smith who played against peak Ashwin, Jadeja and Herath .

Chappell average in Asia is highly misleading. He didn’t play in IND . Scored a double century in Pakistan when neither Imran nor Qadir played .

 

[ma1978]

I will start with one . How is Chappell better than Smith ?
Guy was never Tested against quality spin in his career like Smith who played against peak Ashwin, Jadeja and Herath .

Chappell average in Asia is highly misleading. He didn’t play in IND . Scored a double century in Pakistan when neither Imran nor Qadir played .

you can’t analyse by checklist that way. You play the opportunities you have to play. Chappell was the best batsman in the world for a 5-6 year period. Smith was the best batsman in the world for a 5-6 year period. We could argue about which period was harder etc. the point is an argument can be made.

 

[Socerer 01]

Think his legacy as a top 8 batsman is locked in. Most movement at this point would be between what, 4 and 8?

i’d have him as top 5 irrespective of what happens next in his career tbf

 

[peterhrt]

.I've heard a lot of people describe Botham's peak numbers as better than his performances.

This line was taken up by a few former players, leading to a spat with Denis Compton, whom Botham described as a "so-called great player".

Compton's response was that Alec Bedser used to bowl one or two bad balls in a day's play, while Botham served up at least one every over.

Walking the length of Britain for charity in 1985 hastened the decline of Botham's cricket career.

 

[howitzer]

This line was taken up by a few former players, leading to a spat with Denis Compton, whom Botham described as a "so-called great player".

Compton's response was that Alec Bedser used to bowl one or two bad balls in a day's play, while Botham served up at least one every over.

Walking the length of Britain for charity in 1985 hastened the decline of Botham's cricket career.

How witty.