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Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?


  • Total voters
    56

TheJediBrah

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Simpson
Hayden
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Ponting / Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

How does Miller improve that?
I think the way he could make this team better is replacing Cummins. People will say that Miller didn't bowl enough to be part of an attack of 4 but that ignores context. He didn't bowl much for a lot of games when Aus had 6 options and he wasn't needed, but later on if needed he could lead the attack and bowl 20+ overs an innings without any loss of effectiveness.

So he's maybe a slightly worse bowler than Cummins but a much better bat
 

subshakerz

International Coach
I think the way he could make this team better is replacing Cummins. People will say that Miller didn't bowl enough to be part of an attack of 4 but that ignores context. He didn't bowl much for a lot of games when Aus had 6 options and he wasn't needed, but later on if needed he could lead the attack and bowl 20+ overs an innings without any loss of effectiveness.

So he's maybe a slightly worse bowler than Cummins but a much better bat
It depends where Cummins ends up. If he is Lillee level then dropping him becomes untenable.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
I think the way he could make this team better is replacing Cummins. People will say that Miller didn't bowl enough to be part of an attack of 4 but that ignores context. He didn't bowl much for a lot of games when Aus had 6 options and he wasn't needed, but later on if needed he could lead the attack and bowl 20+ overs an innings without any loss of effectiveness.

So he's maybe a slightly worse bowler than Cummins but a much better bat
But with Bradman, Smith, Gilchrist in the lineup and Simpson as the 4th bowlers, I would argue that not only is it not required, it unnecessarily weakens the bowling.

The only challengers to the original team would be the WI and SA. Pakistan's bowling would cause issues, not quite sure if the batting is up to that standard?
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
That perceived little extra value is actually the difference between the odd game that is won by Kumble with support from Ashwin running through a batting order when conditions are right away from home. Kumble did enough against Australia in the 2000s to suggest he is more capable against ATG sides as an occasional threat. Again, I don't want to exaggerate here, because India are already at a disadvantage as a bowling team, but batting is not an issue for them that Jadeja becomes necessary. They need to throw their remaining eggs in their bowling resources and Kumble is their best overseas spinner.
Occasional threat applies to both of them, just slightly more to Kumble. The 'odd game' becomes the odd game in the odd game. Jadeja is scoring runs pretty frequently though.

You are bringing up Aus, where Jadeja averages 22. Kumble may have managed the same in Jadeja's shoes, but not much better (if at all).

I don't think Jadeja would have been anywhere close to as good as Kumble in his shoes, but it doesn't matter much in the context of the Indian ATG XI. They would be playing in an attack very similar to Jadeja's team, and extremely different from Kumble's.
 

Socerer 01

International Captain
Occasional threat applies to both of them, just slightly more to Kumble. The 'odd game' becomes the odd game in the odd game. Jadeja is scoring runs pretty frequently though.

You are bringing up Aus, where Jadeja averages 22. Kumble may have managed the same in Jadeja's shoes, but not much better (if at all).

I don't think Jadeja would have been anywhere close to as good as Kumble in his shoes, but it doesn't matter much in the context of the Indian ATG XI. They would be playing in an attack very similar to Jadeja's team, and extremely different from Kumble's.
if i wanted a spinner to hold 1 end then Jadeja is the answer, he was superb in that role on pitches that barely helped spinners the last time we toured England while their spinners were being milked for runs by us when they bowled
 

Socerer 01

International Captain
I think the way he could make this team better is replacing Cummins. People will say that Miller didn't bowl enough to be part of an attack of 4 but that ignores context. He didn't bowl much for a lot of games when Aus had 6 options and he wasn't needed, but later on if needed he could lead the attack and bowl 20+ overs an innings without any loss of effectiveness.

So he's maybe a slightly worse bowler than Cummins but a much better bat
this is the exact same argument that some Indian fans are making for Jadeja’s inclusion over Kumble should there only be 4 bowlers and yet its deemed to be sacrilege by a few dissenters
 

TheJediBrah

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But with Bradman, Smith, Gilchrist in the lineup and Simpson as the 4th bowlers, I would argue that not only is it not required, it unnecessarily weakens the bowling.

The only challengers to the original team would be the WI and SA. Pakistan's bowling would cause issues, not quite sure if the batting is up to that standard?
It just comes down to whether Miller's batting is better than Cummins by more than Cummins' bowling is better. Because I have no issue with Miller being part of a 4 man attack.
 
Last edited:

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
this is the exact same argument that some Indian fans are making for Jadeja’s inclusion over Kumble should there only be 4 bowlers and yet its deemed to be sacrilege by a few dissenters
To be fair it makes more sense for India than for Australia.

But my issue isn't Jadu over Kimble as much as batting a batsman short, which has nothing to do with disrespecting anyone but more a preference to not be so easily bowled out when your batting already isn't as strong as some of the other teams.
 

Socerer 01

International Captain
To be fair it makes more sense for India than for Australia.

But my issue isn't Jadu over Kimble as much as batting a batsman short, which has nothing to do with disrespecting anyone but more a preference to not be so easily bowled out when your batting already isn't as strong as some of the other teams.
i personally think it makes more sense to go all in on further strengthening the bowling than trying to do patchwork for the batting but appreciate it if you see otherwise
 

Xix2565

International Debutant
Again, why does having more batting matter? Is an ATG bowling attack going to have that much more difficulty in getting a number 6 batter out that it can win games? Seriously? Over strengthening the actual match winning part of the team, the bowling attack?

Seems very weird to rate batting that highly.
 

Xix2565

International Debutant
More batting = more runs. In cricket the team that makes the most runs wins.

Of course it doesn't help much if you're sacrificing bowling significantly for the more batting
In Test cricket you need to take 20 wickets. Making runs doesn't matter as much, especially when you consider how strong bowling is in comparison to batting as far as influence over the game goes.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
Again, why does having more batting matter? Is an ATG bowling attack going to have that much more difficulty in getting a number 6 batter out that it can win games? Seriously? Over strengthening the actual match winning part of the team, the bowling attack?

Seems very weird to rate batting that highly.
An ATG attack is knocking out a number of top order ATG bats with the new ball fairly frequently. You need to be able to cash in against the older ball.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
In Test cricket you need to take 20 wickets. Making runs doesn't matter as much, especially when you consider how strong bowling is in comparison to batting as far as influence over the game goes.
Why not play 6 bowlers? Or 10? Most of us think the right balance sits in the 4.x range.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
In Test cricket you need to take 20 wickets. Making runs doesn't matter as much, especially when you consider how strong bowling is in comparison to batting as far as influence over the game goes.
You only lose of you're bowled out twice, so yes while I do agree that bowling is a touch more important, if you can't avoid getting bowled out it doesn't matter.

If we're being honest, India isn't beating any of the 3 or 4 strongest teams, might as well give yourself a fighting chance to compete.

But again, matter.of perspective
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
My WI team

Headley
Greenidge
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Weekes / Lloyd
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding / Gibbs

Is Jadeja making an impact here or are you trying to not get run through on a spicy Sabina pitch for the first test?

Again, probably no right answer, but hey.
 

Xix2565

International Debutant
An ATG attack is knocking out a number of top order ATG bats with the new ball fairly frequently. You need to be able to cash in against the older ball.
Why not play 6 bowlers? Or 10? Most of us think the right balance sits in the 4.x range.
Sure, but even then it's always going to be difficult cashing in vs ATGs.

I don't mind the balance for other XIs, but it's bizarre to see this for this Indian side or how the ATG side should look when you look at how they've been successful in this period.

You only lose of you're bowled out twice, so yes while I do agree that bowling is a touch more important, if you can't avoid getting bowled out it doesn't matter.

If we're being honest, India isn't beating any of the 3 or 4 strongest teams, might as well give yourself a fighting chance to compete.

But again, matter.of perspective
You can't avoid getting bowled out though anyway. Generally 70% of all team innings in history have ended as all out, so essentially every 2 out of 3 innings.

Competing means taking wickets to make bowling teams out easier, not more difficult. If you clearly understand how much more difficult batting becomes when you face more good bowlers and good bowling in general, then this shouldn't be a stretch really.

As for the question, sure I'll pick Jadeja for his impact any time. It could easily be that your XI falls apart with the bat the moment he bowls for whatever reason if you want to be very hypothetical.
 

AndyZaltzHair

Hall of Fame Member
My WI team

Headley
Greenidge
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Weekes / Lloyd
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding / Gibbs

Is Jadeja making an impact here or are you trying to not get run through on a spicy Sabina pitch for the first test?

Again, probably no right answer, but hey.
Headley never opened in his life in tests and you are playing him as opener. Does not seem right.
 

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