Where does Imran Khan rank?

[shortpitched713]

You average 14.5, you need not bat one lick. I'm not even concerned about that end with that level of bowling value.

 

[Chin Music]

Yeah, Rice is impressive, sure. But Hadlee averaging 14.5 must have seemed like the spitting incarnation of death to county cricket batsmen. His new ball control in English conditions must have been something else.

Edit:

Hadlee only averaged 25 with the ball in 14 Tests in England. Hmm, FC records really ought to be taken with something of a grain of salt it seems, if we didn't already know that.

It is hardly disastrous but for me I think it shows how much of a lone hand he often was in terms of wicket taking threat. He often had the likes of Chatfield who was honest but hardly incisive.

 

[Nintendo]

Think the brackets here are a bit disingenuous. I voted top 25 because there's no top 15 etc option. In hindsight, ide probably vote top 10, but off the top of my head I couldn't justify putting imran clearly ahead of your pre 40's England openers/gavaskar, Gilchrist, miller, or sobers+ a few others.

 

[ataraxia]

Yeah, Rice is impressive, sure. But Hadlee averaging 14.5 must have seemed like the spitting incarnation of death to county cricket batsmen. His new ball control in English conditions must have been something else.

Edit:

Hadlee only averaged 25 with the ball in 14 Tests in England. Hmm, FC records really ought to be taken with something of a grain of salt it seems, if we didn't already know that.

I'm not sure how you conclude that it isn't the 14-game sample size that's the one that should be taken with a grain of salt?

 

[Ali TT]

I'm not sure how you conclude that it isn't the 14-game sample size that's the one that should be taken with a grain of salt?

Was thinking the same

 

[Coronis]

Imran played most of his cricket in England. Graduating from Oxford, he had many interests outside the game and was not as committed to it as the likes of Hadlee or Marshall. Nevertheless his first-class record representing English counties sits quite well with the other leading all-rounders of the day.

Rice: 283 matches / 17053 runs av 44.29. 37 hundreds / 476 wickets @ 23.58. Wpm 1.7 / 268 catches
Botham: 251 matches / 11904 runs av 34.30. 22 hundreds / 659 wickets @ 27.22. Wpm 2.6 / 184 catches
Imran: 173 matches / 8847 runs av 38.29. 17 hundreds / 537 wickets @ 21.07. Wpm 3.1 / 51 catches
Hadlee: 148 matches / 5854 runs av 38.76. 11 hundreds / 622 wickets @ 14.51. Wpm 4.2 / 105 catches
Kapil Dev: 40 matches / 2312 runs av 42.81. 4 hundreds / 103 wickets @ 26.49. Wpm 2.6 / 40 catches

Mike Procter: 259 matches / 14441 runs av 36.19. 32 hundreds / 833 wickets @ 19.56. Wpm 3.2 / 209 catches

 

[peterhrt]

It is hardly disastrous but for me I think it shows how much of a lone hand he often was in terms of wicket taking threat. He often had the likes of Chatfield who was honest but hardly incisive.

Gooch famously said that batting against New Zealand was like facing a World XI at one end and Ilford Seconds at the other.

At one stage he left the following message on his Answerphone: "I'm out. LBW bowled Alderman."

 

[shortpitched713]

I'm not sure how you conclude that it isn't the 14-game sample size that's the one that should be taken with a grain of salt?

14 matches is more than he played at any other away location in his career. Sure, he's better than a 25 average in English conditions certainly, but not necessarily better than anywhere else he was playing. His game was just absurdly good at dispatching FC level batting, and only ATG level good at dealing with Test batting. Which of course is no knock against him obviously, lol.

 

[_00_deathscar]

It’s a mixture of stuff I’m sure - no idea what kind of support he had at FC level, plus obviously FC batsmen vs test level bats.

 

[The Sean]

Gooch famously said that batting against New Zealand was like facing a World XI at one end and Ilford Seconds at the other.

At one stage he left the following message on his Answerphone: "I'm out. LBW bowled Alderman."

Jeremy Coney said that NZ used that on the pitch, encouraging each other with shouts of "C'mon Ilford!"

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Imran played most of his cricket in England. Graduating from Oxford, he had many interests outside the game and was not as committed to it as the likes of Hadlee or Marshall. Nevertheless his first-class record representing English counties sits quite well with the other leading all-rounders of the day.

Rice: 283 matches / 17053 runs av 44.29. 37 hundreds / 476 wickets @ 23.58. Wpm 1.7 / 268 catches
Botham: 251 matches / 11904 runs av 34.30. 22 hundreds / 659 wickets @ 27.22. Wpm 2.6 / 184 catches
Imran: 173 matches / 8847 runs av 38.29. 17 hundreds / 537 wickets @ 21.07. Wpm 3.1 / 51 catches
Hadlee: 148 matches / 5854 runs av 38.76. 11 hundreds / 622 wickets @ 14.51. Wpm 4.2 / 105 catches
Kapil Dev: 40 matches / 2312 runs av 42.81. 4 hundreds / 103 wickets @ 26.49. Wpm 2.6 / 40 catches

That’s just ridiculous from Hadlee.

 

[The Sean]

Looking at those extraordinary numbers from Hadlee, and remembering also what he did to Australia in particular in the 1980s, he seems curiously underrated when it comes to all the "Greatest Cricketer" lists which we often discuss in here.

In CMJ's 100 greatest cricketers, Hadlee came in at number 25. In David Gower's all time top 50 a few years later, Hadlee was number 24. When Sky Sports cricket statistician Benedict Bermange produced his all time top 100, Hadlee was ranked at number 21. Even more surprisingly, when the Telegraph's Scyld Berry ranked his 40 greatest cricketers of the last 40 years (which only spanned the period 1977-2017), Paddles still couldn't even make the top 20, coming in again at number 21.

I realise, of course, that most players would kill to be ranked this high, but for a player of Hadlee's incredible achievements it seems very much on the low side.

 

[ma1978]

Looking at those extraordinary numbers from Hadlee, and remembering also what he did to Australia in particular in the 1980s, he seems curiously underrated when it comes to all the "Greatest Cricketer" lists which we often discuss in here.

In CMJ's 100 greatest cricketers, Hadlee came in at number 25. In David Gower's all time top 50 a few years later, Hadlee was number 24. When Sky Sports cricket statistician Benedict Bermange produced his all time top 100, Hadlee was ranked at number 21. Even more surprisingly, when the Telegraph's Scyld Berry ranked his 40 greatest cricketers of the last 40 years (which only spanned the period 1977-2017), Paddles still couldn't even make the top 20, coming in again at number 21.

I realise, of course, that most players would kill to be ranked this high, but for a player of Hadlee's incredible achievements it seems very much on the low side.

I just made a post about this -Hadlee vs Sobers. I think each have an equally strong case for the second greatest of all time.

 

[The Sean]

Looking at those extraordinary numbers from Hadlee, and remembering also what he did to Australia in particular in the 1980s, he seems curiously underrated when it comes to all the "Greatest Cricketer" lists which we often discuss in here.

In CMJ's 100 greatest cricketers, Hadlee came in at number 25. In David Gower's all time top 50 a few years later, Hadlee was number 24. When Sky Sports cricket statistician Benedict Bermange produced his all time top 100, Hadlee was ranked at number 21. Even more surprisingly, when the Telegraph's Scyld Berry ranked his 40 greatest cricketers of the last 40 years (which only spanned the period 1977-2017), Paddles still couldn't even make the top 20, coming in again at number 21.

I realise, of course, that most players would kill to be ranked this high, but for a player of Hadlee's incredible achievements it seems very much on the low side.

Replying to myself like a chump here, but Berry's post-1977 list gets more baffling the more I think about it (and I have a lot of respect for Scyld Berry as a writer and correspondent). Even when considering all of cricket history, Hadlee is more likely to be inside my top 10 than outside my top 20.

But post-1977 only? Imagine removing all of Bradman, Sobers, Grace, Hobbs, Miller, Hammond, Barnes, Hutton, O'Reilly and Headley - among dozens of other greats - from consideration and then still not ranking Hadlee in your top 20. I struggle to get my head around it.

 

[trundler]

Replying to myself like a chump here, but Berry's post-1977 list gets more baffling the more I think about it (and I have a lot of respect for Scyld Berry as a writer and correspondent). Even when considering all of cricket history, Hadlee is more likely to be in my top 10 than outside my top 20.

But post-1977 only? Imagine removing all of Bradman, Sobers, Grace, Hobbs, Miller, Hammond, Barnes, Hutton, O'Reilly and Headley - among dozens of other greats - from consideration and then still not ranking Hadlee in your top 20. I struggle to get my head around it.

Didn't bowl well in the Ashes I think.

 

[ankitj]

Looking at those extraordinary numbers from Hadlee, and remembering also what he did to Australia in particular in the 1980s, he seems curiously underrated when it comes to all the "Greatest Cricketer" lists which we often discuss in here.

In CMJ's 100 greatest cricketers, Hadlee came in at number 25. In David Gower's all time top 50 a few years later, Hadlee was number 24. When Sky Sports cricket statistician Benedict Bermange produced his all time top 100, Hadlee was ranked at number 21. Even more surprisingly, when the Telegraph's Scyld Berry ranked his 40 greatest cricketers of the last 40 years (which only spanned the period 1977-2017), Paddles still couldn't even make the top 20, coming in again at number 21.

I realise, of course, that most players would kill to be ranked this high, but for a player of Hadlee's incredible achievements it seems very much on the low side.

Makes my top 5 test cricketers of all time.

ESPN legends of cricket had him at a more respectable #12.

 

[The Sean]

Makes my top 5 test cricketers of all time.

ESPN legends of cricket had him at a more respectable #12.

Geoff Armstrong ranks Hadlee at 14, and puts him in his all time 2nd XI. Hadlee also finished equal 10th - with 13 votes - in Wisden's Cricketer of the Century list. It seems that the less anglo-centric the voter(s), the higher Hadlee ranks. Which is a little strange given Hadlee's brilliance in English county cricket for so long.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Geoff Armstrong ranks Hadlee at 14, and puts him in his all time 2nd XI. Hadlee also finished equal 10th - with 13 votes - in Wisden's Cricketer of the Century list. It seems that the less anglo-centric the voter(s), the higher Hadlee ranks. Which is a little strange given Hadlee's brilliance in English county cricket for so long.

Is it really surprising? He was not English.

 

[Migara]

Imran
Sobers
Hadlee
Bradman
Marshall

would be top 5

McGrath
Murali
Tendulkar
Kallis
Gilchrist

would be next 5 in any order.

 

[Migara]

Yep, Imran was the 3rd best allrounder in the 70's / early 80's to those of us that actually watched the big 4 play and followed every test. Imran and Hadlee often switched around between #2 and #3

Lol