The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Fuller Pilch]

Time to get into Asia with Pkaistan XIs:

Tests -
1. H. Muhammad
2. S. Anwar
3. Y. Khan
4. J. Miandad
5. M. Yousuf
6. M. Muhammad ao
7. I. Khan ao c
8. M. Khan wk
9. W. Akram ao
10. W. Younis
11. S. Ajmal

ODIs -
1. S. Anwar
2. F. Zaman
3. B. Azam
4. M. Yousuf
5. I. ul Haq
6. S. Afridi ao
7. M. Rizwan wk
8. I. Khan ao c
9. W. Akram ao
10. W. Younis
11. S. Ajmal

You need Zaheer Abbas in that ODI team. He had an average of 47.62 and a strike rate of 84.80. Those are absolutely insane numbers for someone playing ODIs in the 70s and early 80s (closest to Viv). Miandad perhaps unlucky too.

 

[Gob]

Pakistan I'd go

Anwar
Younis
Miandad
Yousuf
Inzamam
Imran
Rizwan
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar
Shoaib

 

[trundler]

Pakistan I'd go

Anwar
Younis
Miandad
Yousuf
Inzamam
Imran
Rizwan
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar
Shoaib

Miandad batted a handful of times at 3 and averaged under 40, YK averaged 50 at 3 and why would you leave out Hanif?

 

[Bitmap]

Hanif
Anwar
Younis
Miandad
Inzamam
Mushtaq
Imran(C)
Moin Khan+ (Rizwan pretty close to displacing him)
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar

 

[trundler]

Here are two England XIs, split by WW2:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Grace*
Ranji
Ames+
Rhodes
Lohmann
Larwood
Verity
Barnes

Tough to leave out FS Jackson, Hendren and Leyland. Likewise, Briggs could slot in at 7 instead of Rhodes and I really wanted to fit in Shrewsbury somehow. Grace at 4 may look odd but opening was less of a specialist position in his day and more the default position for the best batsman which these days is 3/4 so that works out in a way. 5 bowlers seems fitting for an England XI of that era and the bowlers all pick themselves. Blythe unlucky.

Hutton*
Boycott
Barrington
Root
Compton
Knott+
Botham
Statham
Trueman
Laker
Anderson

Maybe Underwood in for Statham. Or indeed Snow or Willis. #5 was the toughest spot again. Tough to leave out May. Dexter and KP unucky too but I had to go for Compton.

 

[trundler]

Australia:

Trumper
Ponsford
Bradman*
Macartney
Hill
Noble
Gregory
Blackham+
Spofforth
O'Reilly
Grimmett

Jeez, McCabe should really be in there but Macartney and Hill are indispensable. Armstrong unlucky too. Noble and Gregory together is h4x.

Simpson
Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Border*
Miller
Gilchrist+
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

No shortage of big names missing here. Waugh, Chappell, Davidson, Benaud, Healy, Lawry, Morris — might as well make another XI out of them. Also Cummins looks nailed on to make that third seamer spot his own but Lindwall retired as the greatest pacer ever so he still has some catching up to do.

 

[ImpatientLime]

What a ****ing disgrace that bloke was

just some lad casually chucking his team to series win and no **** willing to call him out. absolutely bizarre time period.

diabolical cheat

 

[trundler]

Nah England getting rekt was hilarious.

Australia:

Trumper
Ponsford
Bradman*
Macartney
Hill
Noble
Gregory
Blackham+
Spofforth
O'Reilly
Grimmett

Jeez, McCabe should really be in there but Macartney and Hill are indispensable. Armstrong unlucky too. Noble and Gregory together is h4x.

Simpson
Hayden
Ponting
Smith
Border*
Miller
Gilchrist+
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

No shortage of big names missing here. Waugh, Chappell, Davidson, Benaud, Healy, Lawry, Morris — might as well make another XI out of them. Also Cummins looks nailed on to make that third seamer spot his own but Lindwall retired as the greatest pacer ever so he still has some catching up to do.

Also, Trumble and Turner should be close to the first team. Turned over Gregory especially could work. Giffen and Murdoch skipped my mind too.

 

[Starfighter]

just some lad casually chucking his team to series win and no **** willing to call him out. absolutely bizarre time period.

diabolical cheat

Willis called him out and had the race card played against him. TBH amongst all the scandals such as spot fixing and ball tampering that have come up over the past decade it is unfortunate that Ajmal's being allowed to get away with what he did for so long has been swept under the carpet. It was worse than any of them in how it affected the game at the time.

 

[ImpatientLime]

Nah England getting rekt was hilarious.

Also, Trumble and Turner should be close to the first team. Turned over Gregory especially could work. Giffen and Murdoch skipped my mind too.

was lovely banter but doesn't detract from the fact that the cheat was doing his best jan zelezny impersonation.

swann, panesar and rehman were all ace in that series. guess what? they all bowled and didn't chuck like that cheating wanker.

 

[HookShot]

I actually have that book (back home in Australia, I've not seen it for years!) and have referenced it many times in these chats. The team selected by Derriman was an attempt to statistically choose an all time Australian XI based on by how far players outperformed their contemporaries. Each player was assigned a batting and bowling rating (and all-rounder rating) and the qualifying criteria was 1,000 Test runs or 75 Test wickets.

I am going by memory here (so HookShot can correct me if I get any of this wrong), but Derriman said he based his selection on the old theory that an ideal XI consists of five batsmen (two openers and three middle-order players), five bowlers (two opening bowlers, a first change, and two spinners) and a wicketkeeper and so that is how his team shaped up. He acknowledged that it had a long tail and said that serious consideration was given to including Keith Miller who had the highest all-rounder rating. However, he said that if Miller went in then Lillee had to come out, as both Spofforth and Davo had better bowling ratings. So, as he didn't want to lose Lillee he kept the team as it was. Bradman was named captain, and Miller chosen as 12th man.

There were several other "guest" teams named in addition to the ones noted above by HookShot, and it was interesting that Bradman, O'Reilly and Tallon were the only players who were chosen in every single team.

Yeah, that‘s pretty much it!

Davidson averaged 25 in Tests and 33 in First Class cricket, so he was a handy bat - but he certainly wasn’t number 6 material no matter what theories Derriman comes up with….


’This selection accords with the old theory that an ideal eleven should consist of five batsman, five bowlers and a wicket-keeper. Some might criticise it for having too long a tail, and consideration was certainly given to including Keith Miller……The trouble was that if Miller went in then the bowler who had to come out was Lillee, for both Davidson and Spofforth had better bowling rates than him, and on balance the present composition was judged to be preferable.

In any case, there is another old theory which covers the case: if five batsman cannot get the necessary runs, a sixth is unlikely to make any difference.’



The flaw in the logic of that last sentence is that at least one of the batsman will be out-of-form during the Test match, so you actually need six batsman in the side to stabilise the order and make the necessary runs.

Bowlers don’t get out for a duck and have to leave the field when they are bowling; so even if a bowler is out of form he can still hold up an end and be useful while an inform Dennis Lillee or Davidson gets the wickets.

 

[CricAddict]

You need Zaheer Abbas in that ODI team. He had an average of 47.62 and a strike rate of 84.80. Those are absolutely insane numbers for someone playing ODIs in the 70s and early 80s (closest to Viv). Miandad perhaps unlucky too.

Zaheer Abbas should always be the second name after Wasim Akram in an ATG Pakistan ODI team.

 

[Red]

I thought M. Waugh was the 5th bowler.

That’s the genius of this. With Symonds bowling his ten economically, if any of McGrath, Starc, Lee or Warne are struggling, MWaugh and Watto can chip in.

 

[ataraxia]

But when Symonds is bowling and creating the chances he creates, who will be at cover to catch them? Symonds bowling leaves a gaping hole in the quality of the field IMO.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

That’s the genius of this. With Symonds bowling his ten economically, if any of McGrath, Starc, Lee or Warne are struggling, MWaugh and Watto can chip in.

Bracken instead of Lee imo, and I'd open with Watto instead of M Waugh and pick Bevan the ODI genius at 6.

 

[bagapath]

Aussie XI from the past 50 years of players who never make it to the all-time XIs

Slater
Katich
Boon
M Waugh
Walters
M Hussey
Haddin +
Johnson
Harris
McGill
Reid

Can become a no.1 test team, actually

 

[jayjay]

You need Zaheer Abbas in that ODI team. He had an average of 47.62 and a strike rate of 84.80. Those are absolutely insane numbers for someone playing ODIs in the 70s and early 80s (closest to Viv). Miandad perhaps unlucky too.

Both brilliant but I couldn't have Abbas baove Azam or Miandad was a great fighter, scrapped together ODI runs but not as good as Yusuf or Inzy in the middle order or as good a striker as Afridi at 6 (who is a genuinely great ODI all rounder).

 

[jayjay]

With your criteria I think I'd go:

Smith
Mitchell
Amla
Kallis
Nourse
De Villiers (wk)
Faulkner
Pollock
Steyn
Tayfield
Donald

Without the 25 Test minimum I'd swap Pollock in for Amla and probably Richards in for Mitchell.

I was close to having ABD as keeper.

 

[harsh.ag]

Both brilliant but I couldn't have Abbas baove Azam or Miandad was a great fighter, scrapped together ODI runs but not as good as Yusuf or Inzy in the middle order or as good a striker as Afridi at 6 (who is a genuinely great ODI all rounder).

Madness. Abbas > all of them in ODIs. But you do you, ofc.

 

[harsh.ag]

Aussie XI from the past 50 years of players who never make it to the all-time XIs

Slater
Katich
Boon
M Waugh
Walters
M Hussey
Haddin +
Johnson
Harris
McGill
Reid

Can become a no.1 test team, actually

Hussey makes it to some ATXIs surely. MWaugh definitely does. In fact, he might be CW's favorite Aussie ODI opener.

Gilmour should probably get picked. Hogg for McGill.