• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
But your outraged feelings haven't anything to do with it. Again, it is just incontinent spasms of blinding emotion. Raging against 'the system' or the 'dominant view' or those 'in power' doesn't necessarily make you right. Nor do your feelings on the ethics of amateur vs. professional sport.

Perhaps that WI test where their best players were on strike shouldn't count. Perhaps all of South Africa's matches over the past x years should be stripped of their test/ODI status because A. B. De Villiers wasn't playing. Or the third test in the 1948 Ashes likewise because Len Hutton was dropped. The logic is no different. And it is just as stupid.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
It's not absurd; the argument is essentially, 'you liked them'. Quality—apart from the issue of subjectivity of course—does not determine first-class or test status, and nor does percieved 'representativeness', otherwise we could have all sorts upgrades and downgrades going on. Matches are deemed to be first class by the governing body, and that is the definition (also, three or more days and eleven a side). Why should a concious step outside that definition be considered first class? Again, your answer will be in essence, 'you liked them'.

By 'Ian-Chappellism', I mean exactly the opinions you are expressing, because they line up very much with things he has said over the years, including having WSC considered first class which I believe he has supported. It encompasses nostalgia, uncritical thinking and a certain amount of hipocrisy (if one compares his current opinions on player behaviour to his own behaviour from his playing days).


Then be satisfied with those rewards. Seems a pretty good deal to me for sacrificing one's first-class career given the relative rewards of each at the time.


This is actually very presumptuous. Australia and West Indies were the most affected, and only in the West Indies would it have made the biggest difference (and even then, they had considerable depth). Few of the young players (i.e. not Chappell/Lillee/Marsh) from the Australian WSC generation had any significant influence at international level after the split ended. England managed to cover its gaps very well.


Except the important sense. You might not like it, but there it is.
Do you realise it's pretty condescending to reduce my argument to "you liked them" when I haven't even said that?

But I'll run with it and assume you're against it because you didn't like them, I guess.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
But your outraged feelings haven't anything to do with it. Again, it is just incontinent spasms of blinding emotion. Raging against 'the system' or the 'dominant view' or those 'in power' doesn't necessarily make you right. Nor do your feelings on the ethics of amateur vs. professional sport.

Perhaps that WI test where their best players were on strike shouldn't count. Perhaps all of South Africa's matches over the past x years should be stripped of their test/ODI status because A. B. De Villiers wasn't playing. Or the third test in the 1948 Ashes likewise because Len Hutton was dropped. The logic is no different. And it is just as stupid.
This is patently ridiculous. The Australian team, playing World Series Cricket Supertests during the WSC era was CLEARLY the elite Australian test team of that time. AB DeVilliers (an autonomous individual) choosing not to play for SA in no way correlates with a whole XI of the best cricketers in a nation choosing to play a different comp because of the corruption in the system of the traditional comp worldwide.

You can bang on as long as you like about governing bodies or defend those in power, but the opinion of anyone with a brain is that WSC supertests were clearly a touger comp than the tests at that time, and the WSC XI was clearly better than the Australian test XI of that time. If you don't wanna add the stats to test or FC stats because "tradition" or whatever, I don't care. I personally would, and I'd acknowledge how good the cricket was in those supertests.
 

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Agree with Red Hill. Unless ABdV went and made his own South African team that was much stronger than the actual one playing internationals then it's not really a relevant analogy.
 

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
Do you realise it's pretty condescending to reduce my argument to "you liked them" when I haven't even said that?

But I'll run with it and assume you're against it because you didn't like them, I guess.
Your attitude is extremely transparent. And I said 'essentially', that is, it is based on a personal judgement of worthiness which can be summed up in the phrase I used. Perhaps it was the wrong phrase, but 'you want them to be' is tautological. I've not seen most of the matches for quite obvious reasons, so I cannot make the judgement on whether I would have like watching them. I find cricket of that era more interesting than today's, so I reckon I would have, regardless of the administrative issues. Besides, the rightness or wrongness of those issues does not decide first-class status.

This is patently ridiculous. The Australian team, playing World Series Cricket Supertests during the WSC era was CLEARLY the elite Australian test team of that time. AB DeVilliers (an autonomous individual) choosing not to play for SA in no way correlates with a whole XI of the best cricketers in a nation choosing to play a different comp because of the corruption in the system of the traditional comp worldwide.
Perceptions of corruption don't determine first class status. And you say it is 'patently ridiculous', but it is merely extending your own logic. What if one player out of the official eleven was in the elite. Or two. Or three. Where do you draw the line? Six (i.e. half a team) of Australia's best (or better) players refused to tour in 1912—should that series no longer be considered a proper test series? Jeff Thomson played the 77/78 season in the official system (ironically due to a sponsorship contract preventing him from going Packer). Rodney Hogg took 41 wickets against England in 78/79. Allan Border made his debut for the offical side and averaged 49 at the end of the split. Furthermore, cricket did not just end with Aus or W.I. (or Pakistan, which also had a large number of defections, although they managed to accomodate some of them in official tours as well). England made good its losses, and India and NZ were unaffected (Hadlee's WSC matches were with the permission of the NZCC). What if Packer had only managed to sign up Australian players?

You can bang on as long as you like about governing bodies or defend those in power, but the opinion of anyone with a brain is that WSC supertests were clearly a touger comp than the tests at that time, and the WSC XI was clearly better than the Australian test XI of that time. If you don't wanna add the stats to test or FC stats because "tradition" or whatever, I don't care. I personally would, and I'd acknowledge how good the cricket was in those supertests.
Correctness of arguments does not depend on positions of power. That is the logic deployed by those who want to cover over holes and contradictions in their own thought (but that's a topic much larger than cricket). And I've not defended the ACB's policy towards paying players anyway, I've said that it is irrelevant to considering matches first-class.
Obviously, the opinion of anyone with a brain is that Aus vs. Aus A was tougher than any other paring in whatever OD series that was, so those matches should be given ODI status or something (and in case you forgot, they don't have it). 'How good the cricket was' doesn't matter ultimately, otherwise many tests involving the weaker sides of the twenty-first century would go and scratch sides, unoffical tours, rebel tours, domestic/tour matches, etc. would come in if the logic is to be applied fully rather than in a manner just get in the ones you want.
If you want to acknowledge how good the cricket was, you can say, 'the cricket was really good,' as you indeed do.
 
Last edited:

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Your attitude is extremely transparent.
Can you explain to me what you mean by this? I have no idea.

Perceptions of corruption don't determine first class status. And you say it is 'patently ridiculous', but it is merely extending your own logic. What if one player out of the official eleven was in the elite. Or two. Or three. Where do you draw the line? Six (i.e. half a team) of Australia's best (or better) players refused to tour in 1912—should that series no longer be considered a proper test series? Jeff Thomson played the 77/78 season in the official system (ironically due to a sponsorship contract preventing him from going Packer). Rodney Hogg took 41 wickets against England in 78/79. Allan Border made his debut for the offical side and averaged 49 at the end of the split. Furthermore, cricket did not just end with Aus or W.I. (or Pakistan, which also had a large number of defections, although they managed to accomodate some of them in official tours as well). England made good its losses, and India and NZ were unaffected (Hadlee's WSC matches were with the permission of the NZCC). What if Packer had only managed to sign up Australian players?
No need to draw a line. It's easy to look at the scorecards and say "these were elite comps contested by the elite players of each nation in that particular era. And give them test and FC status. And why does it matter now "if Packer had only managed to sign up Aust players"? That's a weird question. History shows he didn't. If he hadn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What WSC showed the cricket boards thru the entire world was that unless they got on board with paying players properly, most of the world's elite players would deflect to the Packer league or something like it and the boards would become completely irrelevant unless somehow magically they could find amateur players happy to play for nothing.

If you genuinely think WSC Supertests shouldn't be called tests (because they didn't meet an arbitrary criteria of the time enforced by the ruling body they rebelled against 40 years ago), I dont begrudge you that opinion. I just find it silly. Personally I find it ridiculous that scorecards that have names like these

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/WSC/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0013

on them aren't called FC (or test). There's literally no reason they can't be revised and given the status now.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Lloyd, Holding, Daniel, Croft, Roberts, Chappell (2), Lillee, Marsh, Pascoe, Thomson...
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Walters, Gilmour, O'Keeffe, Walker. Both openers from the Centenary Test also defected - Davis & McCosker.

Of these, Walters was a great 7 Gilmour a definite test all rounder. Walker bowled first change to Lillee & Thommo.

Regardless of whether the official outfit produced blokes who ended up being good players, there's a reason only a couple of them were regulars in the unified side in 79/80.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Must say it's been a while since we've had a properly anal argument on here. Excellent foruming. I'm with NotMckenzie though. The 1970 series has a case but not the others.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Must say it's been a while since we've had a properly anal argument on here. Excellent foruming. I'm with NotMckenzie though. The 1970 series has a case but not the others.
Not sure what you’re trying to say. You think the Supertests were a lesser standard than the official test matches of the same era?
 

bagapath

International Captain
but according the test status (or first class status) is the prerogative of the ICC.
It is perfectly fine for WSC to have its own stats and also claim that the quality of cricket played there was superior. who cares!
But demanding to be called "first class" or "test" from an organisation they've broken away from is not logical.

WSC is like ICL. they can't ask for their stats to be included in IPL.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
From the outside looking in, it appears Red Hill's argument is based on common sense while Not McKenzie appears to be toeing the establishment line. When we look at the criteria for classifying matches as "First Class", there is no doubt that WSC matches should be classified thus. I wouldn't go so far as giving them Test match status but there have been many official Test matches where the representatives have been far less talented than those playing WSC.
 

bagapath

International Captain
agree. at the same time they could also be called exhibition matches... traditionally money spinning exhibition games are always played between such "built" teams... however good the quality of cricket is...
 

bagapath

International Captain
lets say two good teams play for ICL. they will remain two good ICL teams. they don't become IPL teams even if the IPL teams are weaker.

WSC is just WSC. irrelevant to the "test" teams we select in this thread.

Gavaskar and Hutton cannot break into any all time WSC XIs. neither can Barry Richards into test teams.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
Denying Barry Richards ATG status due to only having 4 Test appearances is akin to ranking Roy Emerson above Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall because the latter pair won fewer Slams. The pro tennis circuit and WSC were similar in that they flew in the face of the amateur based establishment of the time. Both featured the very best players of the time.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
05 Australia vs RoW shouldnt be considered an actual test match. Was a thrown together thing and the fact that it counts as a test but WSC doesnt is a bit of a joke.
 

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
Rather than do my usual point by point megaposting (which I was going to), I'll try and be 'short':

What I was getting at with 'only Australians' is (and it's not that difficult to understand), if that were to have happened, would people still be calling for consideration? What if it had happened with the available Australian player pool of 1986? What about 1970 when the troubles were first flaring?

Thing is that people say, 'did you see who was playing and how good they were?' You need to be able to generalise it so that it doesn't depend on the presence or absence of specific personalities (hence the ABdV and Hutton comparisons). It's silly and not commonsensical to argue on the basis of the 'talent', because it is more-or-less a coincidence of timing.

Fact is that, like it or not, 'first-class cricket' is a definition erected by governing bodies to be decided by them. To rebel against something and yet also ask to be welcomed by and benefit from what one is rebelling against is something that I really despise in people. Sacrifice I find more admirable, hence I believe those players should welcome the sacrifice they made for the betterment of their conditions.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Rather than do my usual point by point megaposting (which I was going to), I'll try and be 'short':

What I was getting at with 'only Australians' is (and it's not that difficult to understand), if that were to have happened, would people still be calling for consideration? What if it had happened with the available Australian player pool of 1986? What about 1970 when the troubles were first flaring?

Thing is that people say, 'did you see who was playing and how good they were?' You need to be able to generalise it so that it doesn't depend on the presence or absence of specific personalities (hence the ABdV and Hutton comparisons). It's silly and not commonsensical to argue on the basis of the 'talent', because it is more-or-less a coincidence of timing.

Fact is that, like it or not, 'first-class cricket' is a definition erected by governing bodies to be decided by them. To rebel against something and yet also ask to be welcomed by and benefit from what one is rebelling against is something that I really despise in people. Sacrifice I find more admirable, hence I believe those players should welcome the sacrifice they made for the betterment of their conditions.
But it's not the players who are crying out, it's the fans. It's an important part of cricketing history which saw some of the greatest sides in history pitted against each other.

A "test" to me is a two innings a side match between the best available players in two countries or groups of countries which have high quality competitions from which to draw players. It is distinguishable from exhibition matches by the seriousness in which the players take the match.

By that standard, the supertests were tests, the rebel tours were tests and the 05 match was a test.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
But it's not the players who are crying out, it's the fans. It's an important part of cricketing history which saw some of the greatest sides in history pitted against each other.

A "test" to me is a two innings a side match between the best available players in two countries or groups of countries which have high quality competitions from which to draw players. It is distinguishable from exhibition matches by the seriousness in which the players take the match.

By that standard, the supertests were tests, the rebel tours were tests and the 05 match was a test.
By this standard a ton of matches pre-1950 or so which had amateur cricketers or political influenced selections who had no place in the best XI of teams should be disqualified.
 

Top