Rank the 10,000 club

[morgieb]

However, McGrath has a better average against SA than Warne did

Warne averaged 24 and McGrath 27.....

unless you're referring to games in South Africa?

 

[honestbharani]

So, yes, by "objective stats" you really are just referring to "meaningless numbers", which again begs the question as to why you bothered even saying it. I'm assuming to get a rise out of stephen but a very clumsy attempt.

Nah, I was saying what you seem to find very hard to understand in this and just about any other debate we have had - facts. You can read them again for context and clarity. Its all there.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Nah, I was saying what you seem to find very hard to understand in this and just about any other debate we have had - facts. You can read them again for context and clarity. Its all there.

here we go again

"no u"

Warne averaged 24 and McGrath 27.....

unless you're referring to games in South Africa?

yep my bad

 

[vcs]

The entire Indian batting lineup have inflated averages in Australia because since the turn of the century the ACB have ordered nothing but pancakes and superhighways for India. Hell, the BCCI did a special deal to ensure they didn't have to play at the Gabba last tour.

I mean you only need to look at the three grounds India always play at - the MCG, SCG and Adelaide (day games). Most of the class of 02/03 feasted on these ridiculous roads against the worst bowling attack Australia had put up side 1990.

Truth be told, the ACB want games to last 5 days against India for the revenue and they can't do that if they give Australian bowlers any assistance at all. So really if you want to compare Lara and Tendulkar's performances in Australia you need to factor that in. To be fair, the batsmen who benefited most from this policy were the batsmen who played in 2014. Those pitches were the most docile pitches in living memory and Kohli and Smith both averaged around 100 for that series.

The West Indies were good enough in bouncy and pacy conditions that the ACB never needed to order flat pitches for them (though I'm sure Australian batsmen of the 80s and 90s would have really liked to not face Ambrose and Marshall on the WACA and at the Gabba).

This is all complete unsubstantiated nonsense (bordering on conspiracy theory territory)

Australian pitches have been pretty flat as a rule this century (except for the occasional greentop at Hobart) and India have probably batted a bit better on them than some of the other tourists on average.

 

[honestbharani]

The wickets in 2011 aided movement a lot too when India were there. But I know stephen is very touchy and sensitive in any topic involving Australian cricketer(s).

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is all complete unsubstantiated nonsense (bordering on conspiracy theory territory)

Australian pitches have been pretty flat as a rule this century (except for the occasional greentop at Hobart) and India have probably batted a bit better on them than some of the other tourists on average.

While I can understand why you would think it's a conspiracy theory, it does have a lot of basis in fact. The whole Australia "making flat pitches so it last 5 days" has been pretty common knowledge recently. I doubt that it's specifically because of the Indian batsmen though.

Also would make sense for it to be a bigger deal with India touring because there's so much money in the viewership, you want to get as many days cricket as you can.

The only skeptical part of Stephen's claim is the implication that Indian batsmen suck in Australia, which is pretty hard to confirm or deny recently because out of the last 2 tours, 2014 were infamously flat, slow and low wickets by Australian standards. Which nullifies India's perceived weakness in fast and bouncy conditions. The refusal (or whatever it was) to play in Brisbane doesn't help this either.

The more I think about it Stephen isn't too far off the mark with the facts of his statement.

The wickets in 2011 aided movement a lot too when India were there. But I know stephen is very touchy and sensitive in any topic involving Australian cricketer(s).

and they lost 4-0. Doesn't really dispute Stephen's claim tbf

 

[harsh.ag]

New hot take by stephen - CA/ACB flattened pitches for the second best batting line up of the noughties to not lose tv revenue.

For the weaker England batting in the biggest test series on the planet - nah, no such thing.

<slow clap>

 

[Spark]

New hot take by stephen - CA/ACB flattened pitches for the second best batting line up of the noughties to not lose tv revenue.

For the weaker England batting in the biggest test series on the planet - nah, no such thing.

<slow clap>

I don't think CA artificially flattened pitches -- overall pitch conditions are principally a function of the weather in this country over the course of an entire year, i.e. whether we have a drought or not -- but there's no question that some of the pitches India played on in the mid-2010s when they visited Australia were some of the flattest known to mankind. But of course the argument that this was done for India specifically doesn't hold much water because a whole host of Australian series over that timeframe were benighted by awful dead pitches.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think CA artificially flattened pitches -- overall pitch conditions are principally a function of the weather in this country over the course of an entire year, i.e. whether we have a drought or not -- but there's no question that some of the pitches India played on in the mid-2010s when they visited Australia were some of the flattest known to mankind. But of course the argument that this was done for India specifically doesn't hold much water because a whole host of Australian series over that timeframe were benighted by awful dead pitches.

stephen was talking about it in the context of tendulkar's record in Australia in the 2000s, not the 2010s.

 

[ankitj]

One time when India played in Perth, India won didn't it. Back in 2008.

 

[Burgey]

Well tbh there was a drought in the 2000s here which lasted about 8 years, one of the worst on record across the country. Probably the main reason the decks were so flat here that decade. Good players just picked the line early and hit through it. Was a great time to be a batsman out here. That applies to everyone though, not just the poison dwarf.

 

[TheJediBrah]

stephen was talking about it in the context of tendulkar's record in Australia in the 2000s, not the 2010s.

Well tbf he is right that India mostly played on the wickets more suited to them even in the 2000's. Only time they played in Brisbane was 2003/04 against a much depleted Australian bowling line-up (unless they played in 2007 as well?, can't recall)

New hot take by stephen - CA/ACB flattened pitches for the second best batting line up of the noughties to not lose tv revenue.

For the weaker England batting in the biggest test series on the planet - nah, no such thing.

<slow clap>

Yeah that's the part of stephen's hypothesis that falls apart. The rest is pretty accurate though.

 

[ankitj]

It was also well understood in 2000s to early 2010s that India's chances to win increased in place friendly conditions because the batsmen didn't suffer to the same degree that bowlers benefited. India registered several wins on green tops and swinging conditions in that period. So it's quite arbitrary to say India were being saved from pacy pitches for TV revenue.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Well tbf he is right that India mostly played on the wickets more suited to them even in the 2000's. Only time they played in Brisbane was 2003/04 against a much depleted Australian bowling line-up (unless they played in 2007 as well?, can't recall)


Yeah that's the part of stephen's hypothesis that falls apart. The rest is pretty accurate though.

They also played in Perth, the so called pace bowlers paradise and won. If india did indeed conspire with acb to stop playing tests at Perth, then they're dumbasses

 

[vcs]

The wickets in 2011 aided movement a lot too when India were there. But I know stephen is very touchy and sensitive in any topic involving Australian cricketer(s).

Yeah. Definitely seems to struggle with the idea that Indian cricketers can do well out of their own merit. Can't be too careful while offering praise to Indians in any thread where he or TJB are around. Sensitive lot.

 

[Spark]

They also played in Perth, the so called pace bowlers paradise and won. If india did indeed conspire with acb to stop playing tests at Perth, then they're dumbasses

Yeah but anyone who actually watched cricket at Perth and didn't just little to Channel 9 commentators knows that the WACA was basically a batsman's paradise most of the time from about 2001 onwards absent cracks. Which is not to say that sides didn't get spooked by the extra bounce and thus fold for no apparent reason, or that touring teams sometimes got tricked and sucked into the reputation of the WACA as a fire-breathing demon of a pitch, but it was an extremely batting-friendly pitch most of the time.

Burgey is correct though. The main reason for this is because the vast majority of the time since 2000, Australia has been in "drought" relative to previous historical norms, which has made pitches drier, harder and more difficult to keep live grass alive on (and if you try, the result is often pitches which don't deteriorate at all). So more even bounce, less seam movement, less swing and even a little less pace. Just amazing conditions for batting in general.

This is probably something that's going to get worse in future years, not better, of course.

 

[pardus]

Yeah but anyone who actually watched cricket at Perth and didn't just little to Channel 9 commentators knows that the WACA was basically a batsman's paradise most of the time from about 2001 onwards absent cracks. Which is not to say that sides didn't get spooked by the extra bounce and thus fold for no apparent reason, or that touring teams sometimes got tricked and sucked into the reputation of the WACA as a fire-breathing demon of a pitch, but it was an extremely batting-friendly pitch most of the time.

Burgey is correct though. The main reason for this is because the vast majority of the time since 2000, Australia has been in "drought" relative to previous historical norms, which has made pitches drier, harder and more difficult to keep live grass alive on (and if you try, the result is often pitches which don't deteriorate at all). So more even bounce, less seam movement, less swing and even a little less pace. Just amazing conditions for batting in general.

This is probably something that's going to get worse in future years, not better, of course.

One time when India played in Perth, India won didn't it. Back in 2008.

Perth wicket that India played in 2007 cannot be compared to the Perth wicket India played 2 ODIs in 2004. Man, that Perth wicket in 2004, gave Indian batting lineup a proper working over. After the match, Dravid called it the bounciest wicket he ever played on. India played 2 ODIs in Perth in 2004. One against Zimbabwe & another against Aus. They were understandably obliterated by Australia. But even the ODI match against Zimbabwe went down to the wire. Chasing a measly 130+ against Zimbabwe was so tough for India (and it was a full strength batting lineup with Sehwag, Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman), they lost 6 wickets before they went past the target.
BCCI was super wise to avoid Perth for a Test on that tour.

 

[stephen]

The other factor is the drop in pitches that have removed all life from the MCG and SCG in particular. India got lucky to avoid both McGrath and Warne in the 03 series but they have consistently had super flat decks rolled out for them since the turn of the century.

That's not to say that Indian batsmen are ****, only that their records here are inflated compared to other touring batsmen. CA don't really care who wins when India tour, they only care that they get 5 day tests. It's been quite obvious for some time. And out of the WACA/Gabba and Hobart, the WACA has been the flattest since 00.

 

[honestbharani]

Perth 2008 was as tough as Perth 2004 IMO. Just the Indian side was that much better the second time around.


And @Spark and @Burgey, is it also the reason for all the bushfires and stuff? The drought?

 

[ankitj]

India did play in Brisbane in 03-04 if not Perth. What's with all the conspiracy theories? Besides Australia is not the only place where cricket happens. India won couple of games in South Africa also on pace friendly decks. When travelling pace friendly decks were in India's favour. You'd know it if you were watching cricket in that period.