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Does Umpire's Call need to go?

Daemon

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It won't fix the crux of the issue would it though? This unrealistic expectation of perfect decisions, be it by a human or a machine, will never ever be met. There will always be borderline calls, and there will always be decisions that people don't agree with. You can try all you like to get closer to perfection, but you will not get it, and people who like to complain about it will keep doing so. This is a problem with no solution. We brought DRS in to make umpiring better, and it has worked, and yet people are angrier than ever before. What makes you think going full tech will make them any happier?

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Now, if you will indulge me for a bit, i'll go on a rant. Skip this bit if you don't care.

I was speaking to Burgey about yesterday's game, and I was explaining to him why I'm not a big fan of DRS, mainly for three reasons:

1) players waste reviews all the time, and then fans and media complain about players being 'unlucky' when a call goes against them and their review was burned. DRS has created a whole new source of angst and self pitying.

2) people have gotten even angrier at umpires, and not because decision making has gone down since pre-technology days, but because errors are scrutinized to a greater degree than ever before. People didn't have computers and high tech cameras and the internet and fancy graphics to analyse every singe decision before. They'd see a batsman get out, and if they disagree, chalk it down to a tough decision and move on with their lives. That was a better time. Now this whole topic of umpiring has become the cesspool of negativity and toxicity wherein the match officials are now being perceived as holding the game back.

3) It's written in the spirit of cricket to respect the authority of the umpires, and DRS is literally the anthesis to this.

Match officials are humans and they make mistakes. Players make mistakes all the time too. Last night, CdG and Boult both made mistakes in taking catches, the one from Boult probably the one that cost them the game, yet these errors are getting less attention than those of the umpires. The number of errors in the game by all the players involved was huge. Think about all the miscued shots and fulltosses and fumbles on the field. These were mistakes. And yes, while the umpires were not great, they were still pretty damn good in comparison. But they don't get forgiven. People don't even understand the extent of the role of an umpire plays in the game, yet they're quick to condemn and criticize them.

Secondly, so many decisions this whole WC -and in the history of cricket, in general- have been judged incorrectly by people watching the game. Just read he match threads, twitter, even the live commentary. Heck, how many reviews have the players themselves gotten wrong? The umpires are making difficult calls out in the middle, and we can't get them 100%% right while sitting at home, watching on TV, with no external distractions and clearer view of the action, then why can't we cut umpires some slack when they get it wrong? This isn't umpiring so outrageously bad it makes you question if they're fixing the game (like we had in the 70s and 80s). These are understandable errors. If a player made an equivalent error while playing we'd forgive them, but in this new DRS culture, umpires get painted out as wildly incompetent for missing a thin edge or giving an LBW to a ball missing the stump by 5mm. It's so insane that we've now gotten to the point where we actually want to do away with them all together. It's so weird. Umpiring right now is the best it has ever been, but because we have easy access to their mistakes, we're also whinging about more than we ever have.

And ultimately, no matter how much you try to automate things, the human element will remain. There have been so many decisions that the third umpire, with all his tech, still can't figure out. We had one LBW call this WC itself where, even with benefit of the tech, we had no idea if it was bat first or pad. The third umpire had to decide using his own judgement, and people got mad. At the end of the day, a human being will have to make a call using his judgement at some point, and no matter what they decide, people will get mad. This is human nature. If the umpires were robots, people would complain about the people who built and programmed them. You're not going to solve this no matter how much you automate or bring tech in.

At the end of the day, there isn't actually a massive problem here that needs fixing. Games are not being won or loss solely on umpiring decisions. They may be a factor, but they will always be a factor. That is just what cricket is about. All sports suffer from this. The human element is part and parcel of sports, and it is what makes it beautiful.

Don't get me wrong - there are valid complaints, and I'm not trying to shut down all discussion on umpiring standards and processes. I just think we're going the wrong way when we think the solution to all this is to cut out humans all together.
So naturally the solution is to get rid of it
 

SillyCowCorner1

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Robots are fun...but no fun when you can't have a drink with them after the game discussing the questionable LBW decision that got you out.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
Umpires call needs to go. Anything that is in the zone of uncertainty needs to be given the benefit of doubt. That's how it always was and how it always should be. Umpires should be taken off the field where they can more efficiently tend to their paperwork and other tasks.
 

TheJediBrah

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Umpires call needs to go. Anything that is in the zone of uncertainty needs to be given the benefit of doubt. That's how it always was and how it always should be. Umpires should be taken off the field where they can more efficiently tend to their paperwork and other tasks.
Such as updating and distributing their resume?
 

cnerd123

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@Bijed

Good post. Have a few replies.

The player who has been sawn off in this scenario is unlucky, surely?
Yes. But in pre-DRS days, you had one source of bad luck - a poor decision. Now, we have two. Not only did Ross Taylor get a poor decision, but he was also 'unlucky' that his teammate burned the review. He was unlucky on two counts. And this new source of bad luck - the loss of a review - has created a whole new source of angst that has never existed before. People driven by this angst now want 2 reviews in an innings. They have lost sight of what reviews and DRS were meant to do (remove outrageously bad decisions), and have instead gone on the path of not trusting the onfield umpire at all, and wanting every single decision to be reviewed with tech. Posters on CW already want this and don't understand why that won't actually solve the problem.

The problem is the internet here, as your most visible protagonists in this sort of thing rarely seem willing to 'chalk it down to a tough decision and move on with their lives', even though everyone would be much happier if they did.
This is a fair point, and which is why I don't want the ICC making decisions based on the outrage of people over the internet.

But if the game is still fundmentally basing itself around the tenet of never questioning the umpires, then I think that needs to change.
The game is fundamentally built around being a reflection of life. It's slow for the most part, but then you get crazy moments or passages of play that can change the direction game. It values a whole host of great personality traits - of which the main ones have always been self discipline, patience, adaptability, and the ability to accept that sometimes life doesn't go your way. Getting a bad decision doesn't mean you lose your composure or quit the game. You keep trucking on. The Preamble to the Laws is well worth reading:
https://www.lords.org/mcc/laws/preamble-to-the-laws-spirit-of-cricket

Respecting the authority of the umpires is not the key point. The umpires themselves report to a match referee and a central ICC body that constantly evaluates and grades them. They're under as much scrutiny as the players, and aren't the lord and master of the game as one would be lead to believe. But the ability to respect an umpire despite copping a bad call, that's central to the spirit of cricket, IMO. Not just how you react to the decision, but how you talk about the decision off the field, how you talk of the umpire of the field, and how you accept the outcome of the game, despite what you may think of the quality of decision making.

All these people now saying that NZ was the rightful WC champions - they're going against the Spirit of Cricket, in my book. That is not on. But that culture of feeling justified in questioning decisions made by umpires/match officials/administrators has been fueled by the ICC accepting the DRS, IMO. It has set a precedent that has lead to poor behaviour from players on the field (w/regards to umpiring decisions), and to the fans perceptions of the match officials. It has legitimised behaviour the is based around not respecting the authority of the match officials. To me, that's a bad thing.

Right again, though I view minimising the scope for human error causing controversy to be a very worthy goal
We have had as much, if not more, umpiring controversy since DRS than before it. It's a worthy goal, but is this the way to go about achieving it?

Don't really agree here tbh. Yes, umpiring mistakes are rarely 100% the reason behind a result going a particular way (and it's impossible to say how a match might have unfolded subsequently had one not occurred), but when they do happen, such mistakes are a massive problem imo. In the match yesterday, England definitely had the rub of the green in this respect and whilst you can't say for certain they'd have lost otherwise, I think a reasonable assessment on the balance of probablities would reach this conclusion. When you say 'games are not being won or loss solely on umpiring decisions', yes, in any tight contest you can point to any number of specific moments, Boult on the boundary for example, as being the difference between the two sides, in sports, players and teams should live and die, so to speak, on the strength of such moments and whilst I agree that people should generally make peace with the fact that officiating decisions can and will go against them, that doesn't in any way 'legitimise' them.
I'm not trying to legitimise bad decisions.
I think you agree with me, despite starting off saying otherwise. I think we agree that any time there is controversy over umpires decisions, it's usually in a tight game. We don't fuss over a batsman getting sawn off when his team wins by 8 wickets, for example (Jason Roy vs Australia). We only care when it is a scenario where you can claim that the umpire's decision would have made a difference. We also agree that, in those situations, there are hundreds of other little moments during the game that could have made a difference too.
So we both agree that poor decisions may have been a factor. But for me, that's it. They are just a factor. They alone don't determine the game. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for better decision making. What that means is that the outrage over these decisions is always out of proportion, because people criticize them with ll the emotion that comes with losing a close game. For example - the bad caught behind Roy copped vs Aus has gotten a lot less attention than the LBW decision he survived first ball vs NZ. Even tho the Aus decision was objectively way worse. Why? Because all the emotion of the WC final is spilling into people's judgement of that LBW call.

I was always taught that you just accept the things you can not control and focus on what you can. That was the cricket culture I grew up with. If you don't want to be sawn off LBW, use your bat. Don't want be given out wrongly caught behind, then stop playing and missing. The umpire's judgement is out of your control, and if you lose a tight game, you focus all your energy on what you did wrong, and not what the umpires may have done wrong.

That's what is disappearing now that DRS is in play. More people want to argue that it was the umpires that cost NZ yesterday, ignoring that Guptill burned a review, Boult bowled poorly and dropped a key catch for six, and CdG played what is perhaps the worst innings in World Cup Final history.

People have always complained about umpires. DRS was brought in to make them happy. But they have not stopped complaining. Heck you have Daemon and Flem arguing that not only was the umpire wrong to not give Jason Roy out, but that Hawkeye was wrong too.

There is no way having more tech or more reviews will ever satisfy fans who think like that. Which leads me to this:

So naturally the solution is to get rid of it
You're putting words in my mouth, first of all. I've never said this.

Implementing DRS was opening a pandora's box, IMO, and now there is no shutting it. You can't roll it back or scrap it entirely. You just have to accept that players being able to review an umpires decision will be part of the game moving forwards. And, when used as intended, it's not a bad thing in any stretch of the imagination.

I think, as and when technology improves, it should be available for umpires to utilize. Making better decisions is always the goal.

But, at the end of the day, it will be humans who make decisions. There is no fighting this or getting away from this. You're not going to have robot umpires, and you're going to have situations where some person make a call based on their judgement that you as a fan won't like. The solution is not to remove this person. The solution is to just get on with your life.
 
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PikeyB

School Boy/Girl Captain
My gut reaction to DRS was liking it for everything but not out LBWs . To my mind a not out LBW needs to be hitting middle to be overturned ...then bowling sides will only review for the shocking decisions . There was good reason batsmen got the benefit of the doubt before DRS and I don't think that has changed much .

I would like Umpires to have an option to review for their own decisions , but only in extraordinary circumstances . I'm also totally into tech solutions for noballs and wides and maybe even whether the ball has hit the ground in catches . Overall though I would hate for the Umpire to become marginalized by technology at the top level . His/her decision is final on the day . Leave the forensic auditing to the ICC later , in my opinion. .
 

Burgey

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It’s interesting you think that if a ball is knocking off stunp out of the ground it’s not out enough for an on field umpires decision to be over turned
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
So what point is it enough that the prediction of the ball hitting the wicket is enough to satisfy it is out? I mean I can see the comments when it is 0.3 mm predicted to hitting the leg stump being given out? I just hope that the man who chose where point of impact was remains anonymous.

I still would like to see the actually test results of the hawkeye accuracy.
 

Daemon

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*****, stop.

You keep saying that DRS isn’t solving the problem. But the problem wasn’t making people happy, it was about making more correct decisions - which you have admitted DRS helps with. And before you refute this with “making more correct decisions was about keeping people happy”, give yourself an uppercut.

What you’re arguing is that we should go back to making more wrong decisions so that people are less discontent and there’s less angst towards umpires.

Ridiculous how long your word salads are for an opinion so incorrect.
 
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trundler

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Kohli got out on umpire's call and it looked fairly plumb. Then in the other semi final Handscomb received a similar ball for not out. I know it's a judgement call either way but maybe umpires could be more consistent. Sometimes the batsman is deep in his crease and takes one on the one on the knee roll and it's only umpire's call. That sort of scenario not being out would rightly annoy the bowler. I know umpires aren't perfect, neither is the tech so just cop it on the chin. Still think chucking Dharmasena in the bin would be a step towards consistency. Guy has his ass saved by that sort of umpire's call often.
 

PikeyB

School Boy/Girl Captain
It’s interesting you think that if a ball is knocking off stunp out of the ground it’s not out enough for an on field umpires decision to be over turned
I've already said , I'd take away not out LBW appeals from DRS entirely if I had my way :D . Just think LBW should remain an unattractive mode of dismissal and reviews should be weighted to keep that balance . I also don't like the use of the review system as a weapon in general . It's there to overturn injustice rather than to tease out bonus wickets in my opinion .
 
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cnerd123

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*****, stop.

You keep saying that DRS isn’t solving the problem. But the problem wasn’t making people happy, it was about making more correct decisions - which you have admitted DRS helps with. And before you refute this with “making more correct decisions was about keeping people happy”, give yourself an uppercut.

What you’re arguing is that we should go back to making more wrong decisions so that people are less discontent and there’s less angst towards umpires.

Ridiculous how long your word salads are for an opinion so incorrect.
Show me where I've suggested any of this? I literally said we should continue to improve decision making and there is no going back on DRS.

My point is that humans are going to be at the core of decision making whether you like it or not. I'm sorry if you cbf reading my whole post (in which case - why reply?), or if I didn't express it clearly enough. But that's all I'm getting at here. You can have all the tech you want, and it will still be a human who makes a decision at some point. A human decided at what point we have 'umpires call', for example. The human error will always be a component of the game, and putting all your energy towards eliminating that is foolish because it will never happen.

I think the fans have just got to learn to accept it and move on. I think that the more we encourage whinging and sooking about the human element, the worse off we'll be.
 

Burgey

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I've already said , I'd take away not out LBW from DRS entirely if I had my way :D . Just think LBW should remain an unattractive mode of dismissal and reviews should be weighted to keep that balance . I also don't like the using of the review system as a weapon in general . It's there to overturn injustice rather than to tease out bonus wickets in my opinion .
Sure, but this gets back to my salient point, which is the review system is a cop out to mask incompetent umpiring. It’s now got to the stage where even sensible, non-***** cricket fans on here see a bad decision cost a side a wicket and say “They wasted their review, too bad” instead of the proper response, which should be “What a ********* decision. This bloke needs a cane and a guide dog.”

Cricket will need to bite the bullet and put the tech back in the umpires’ hands like they first did in the 05 Aus v ROW series. It was awful because it delayed the game every two overs, but you’re talking about deciding world championships and fellas’ careers here.

It’s that or they do away with it altogether.
 
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Daemon

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Show me where I've suggested any of this? I literally said we should continue to improve decision making and there is no going back on DRS.

My point is that humans are going to be at the core of decision making whether you like it or not. I'm sorry if you cbf reading my whole post (in which case - why reply?), or if I didn't express it clearly enough. But that's all I'm getting at here. You can have all the tech you want, and it will still be a human who makes a decision at some point. A human decided at what point we have 'umpires call', for example. The human error will always be a component of the game, and putting all your energy towards eliminating that is foolish because it will never happen.

I think the fans have just got to learn to accept it and move on. I think that the more we encourage whinging and sooking about the human element, the worse off we'll be.
What I understood from your post was that once DRS was implemented l, there was no turning back, which seems to imply that the pandora’s box should’ve never been opened in the first place.

I think we should continue to focus our energy on eliminating the human error. We will never get there but we can get close.
 
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TheJediBrah

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***** seriously, dot points m8

I'm sure all that could easily be said in 10% of the words

(@ your earlier post)
 

cnerd123

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What I understood from your post was that once DRS was implemented l, there was no turning back, which seems to imply that the pandora’s box should’ve never been opened in the first place.
Yup, and I explained why in that post. TBF a lot of umpires more qualified and experienced than me disagree with this. My own views of what cricket is meant to be are very antiquated and I realise this.

I think the solution we have now with DRS is about as good as it can get. I know a lot of thought has gone into it. I'm more old school and feel that all the tools should have been left in the hands of the umpires, who would be free to use it at their discretion. But giving players the opportunity to review is in line with how other major sports do it, and it works very well when used correctly.
 

PikeyB

School Boy/Girl Captain
I totally agree with giving Umpires more access to the technology .

We all follow a lot of cricket , most of us since before DRS was even a thing . I can honestly say that I do not always trust the Hawkeye etc data . A recent one that springs to mind was that last Ashes Adelaide Test in 2017 . That ball tracker was tripping its nuts off in my opinion . So there's no way I'd be comfortable deferring to the technology until it feels standardized and infallible .
 

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