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Virat Kohli, the greatest ODI bat ever?

Is Virat Kohli the Greatest ODI bat of all Time

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 47.5%
  • No

    Votes: 21 52.5%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

OverratedSanity

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I don't know, I'm just giving you something AB is better at than anyone in history. With 15 overs to go in the first innings and a decent platform set, there's no one I'd rather be at the crease than him.

Edit: @spark
 
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Spark

Global Moderator
I don't know, I'm just giving you something AB is better at than anyone in history. With 15 overs to go in the first innings and a decent platform set, there's no one I'd rather be at the crease than him.

Edit: @spark
Yeah that's fair. I guess I just see that as a more marginal skill than chasing, which is literally about your ability to win in ~50% of all the games you'll play. There's a reason why commonly-regarded ODI ATGs like Bevan and Dhoni are often seen as such because of their ability to manage and control chases.

It's worth noting that until recently chasing was seen as significantly more challenging than batting first in equivalent situations, which is why the fairly conservatively-minded Australian setup still places a real premium on getting a score on the board and has struggled at big chases until last weekend. Kohli is actually a big part of the reason why this change, he more than anyone spearheaded that trend of huge 300+ scores being run down. That alone for me puts him in the absolute top tier ATGs because he's literally changed how people perceive the format.

I don't really care that much if he's the ODI GOAT because, unlike in Tests, there's sufficient evidence to suggest that the ODI game in the 1980s was a fundamentally beast to what it is today. But of everyone I've seen - that includes some incredible players - he to me is the standout.
 
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Spark

Global Moderator
Let me put it this way. Put up two evenly matched sides except one has ABdV, one has Kohli.

ABdV's side bats first, and it so happens that ABdV is able to express what he is best at, namely finishing, subject to the quality of the attack (idgaf about him trashing a ********* WI attack all over the park, as fun as it is to watch). Then Kohli's side bats, and Kohli is able to express what he is best at, namely chasing, again subject to the quality of the attack.

IMO Kohli's side wins more often. That's kind of the whole point, right?
 

Burner

International Regular
AB batted too low imo. He could have won way more games for SA if he batted at 3. Kohli will go the same way if they play KL 'I have so much talent' Rahul ahead of him.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
AB batted too low imo. He could have won way more games for SA if he batted at 3. Kohli will go the same way if they play KL 'I have so much talent' Rahul ahead of him.
Yeah I agree. Unless they are super-specialist finishers like Dhoni, then you play your best bats in the top three.
 

Burgey

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Yeah absolutely. The idea of India not batting Kohli at three is a deadset gift to whoever they're playing.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Let me put it this way. Put up two evenly matched sides except one has ABdV, one has Kohli.

ABdV's side bats first, and it so happens that ABdV is able to express what he is best at, namely finishing, subject to the quality of the attack (idgaf about him trashing a ********* WI attack all over the park, as fun as it is to watch). Then Kohli's side bats, and Kohli is able to express what he is best at, namely chasing, again subject to the quality of the attack.

IMO Kohli's side wins more often. That's kind of the whole point, right?
Significantly more often than not, particularly when we are talking about regular sides, not atg ones. You are setting up an asymmetric comparison between Kohli playing an the bulk of an innings and AB finishing though. If AB gets the opportunity to face a significant number of balls, the gap narrows. It's hard to know how much of Kohli's extra value is a function of him having more value and how much is a function of top order bats having more opportunity.

Flip this around and assume Kohli is setting and AB is chasing and AB will win more matches for you.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Because Kohli is weaker at setting targets, ABdV may be able to chase them down even though Kohli is a better chaser.
Because Kohli is exceptional at chasing targets, ABdV's #5 heroics may not be sufficient even though he is a better finisher.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
ABDV didn't always bat at 5. He did open for a substantial portion of his career. He was terrifyingly good all career and other than Lara in tests, I've never been more frightened to see a batsman come to the crease. Even when Australia were the clearly dominant side, it always felt like ABDV could put us to the sword.

The feeling is different with Kohli. It feels like he can be worked around. Yes, he can put up the big scores, but he doesn't usually totally take the game away from your side. He's obviously better at chasing than setting targets, which is his strength, but I feel like he's really just a newer, fresher Dhoni in that regard.

The player ODI Kohli most reminds me of is test Ponting. Ponting in tests between 2002 and 2007 was on a different plane. He would go out there and punish the bowling for taking the openers wicket. He simply churned out the hundreds during this era. His average got to a fraction below 60. But then he had the inevitable long slow decline (from about age 33) and averaged 40 for the last four or five years of his career, declining him to his final average of around 52. At the time of Ponting's purple patch, people were saying that he was easily going to break all of Sachin's run scoring records. But it's very difficult to sustain that level of brilliance for more than half a dozen years at a time.

My point is that Kohli is in a ridiculous purple patch right now, possibly one that is greater than anyone else's before him (though Amla's was pretty damn memorable at the time). But that's not necessarily a reason to rate him as a better player than Viv or Bevan or ABDV or Tendulkar quite yet (though personally I do rate him as being better than Tendulkar).

And if you need any evidence that form can turn quickly on players, look at Shaun Marsh. Averaged 60 last calendar year and now isn't even playing for Australia, despite Australia missing their two best batsmen.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Significantly more often than not, particularly when we are talking about regular sides, not atg ones. You are setting up an asymmetric comparison between Kohli playing an the bulk of an innings and AB finishing though. If AB gets the opportunity to face a significant number of balls, the gap narrows. It's hard to know how much of Kohli's extra value is a function of him having more value and how much is a function of top order bats having more opportunity.

Flip this around and assume Kohli is setting and AB is chasing and AB will win more matches for you.
That's exactly my point though. Chasing is more important than finishing, so therefore Kohli being a better chaser is more important than ABdV being a better finisher.
 

sunilz

International Regular
ABDV didn't always bat at 5. He did open for a substantial portion of his career. He was terrifyingly good all career and other than Lara in tests, I've never been more frightened to see a batsman come to the crease. Even when Australia were the clearly dominant side, it always felt like ABDV could put us to the sword.

The feeling is different with Kohli. It feels like he can be worked around. Yes, he can put up the big scores, but he doesn't usually totally take the game away from your side. He's obviously better at chasing than setting targets, which is his strength, but I feel like he's really just a newer, fresher Dhoni in that regard.

The player ODI Kohli most reminds me of is test Ponting. Ponting in tests between 2002 and 2007 was on a different plane. He would go out there and punish the bowling for taking the openers wicket. He simply churned out the hundreds during this era. His average got to a fraction below 60. But then he had the inevitable long slow decline (from about age 33) and averaged 40 for the last four or five years of his career, declining him to his final average of around 52. At the time of Ponting's purple patch, people were saying that he was easily going to break all of Sachin's run scoring records. But it's very difficult to sustain that level of brilliance for more than half a dozen years at a time.

My point is that Kohli is in a ridiculous purple patch right now, possibly one that is greater than anyone else's before him (though Amla's was pretty damn memorable at the time). But that's not necessarily a reason to rate him as a better player than Viv or Bevan or ABDV or Tendulkar quite yet (though personally I do rate him as being better than Tendulkar).

And if you need any evidence that form can turn quickly on players, look at Shaun Marsh. Averaged 60 last calendar year and now isn't even playing for Australia, despite Australia missing their two best batsmen.
May be because of 2017 test series in which Kohli average around 10 . However if you go by stats Kohli has the best average against AUS in last 50 years in all the format
Batting records | Combined Test, ODI and T20I records | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Kohli also has the highest average in won games in modern era in all formats if you are talking about match winning ability
Batting records | Combined Test, ODI and T20I records | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
ABDV didn't always bat at 5. He did open for a substantial portion of his career. He was terrifyingly good all career and other than Lara in tests, I've never been more frightened to see a batsman come to the crease. Even when Australia were the clearly dominant side, it always felt like ABDV could put us to the sword.

The feeling is different with Kohli. It feels like he can be worked around. Yes, he can put up the big scores, but he doesn't usually totally take the game away from your side. He's obviously better at chasing than setting targets, which is his strength, but I feel like he's really just a newer, fresher Dhoni in that regard.

The player ODI Kohli most reminds me of is test Ponting. Ponting in tests between 2002 and 2007 was on a different plane. He would go out there and punish the bowling for taking the openers wicket. He simply churned out the hundreds during this era. His average got to a fraction below 60. But then he had the inevitable long slow decline (from about age 33) and averaged 40 for the last four or five years of his career, declining him to his final average of around 52. At the time of Ponting's purple patch, people were saying that he was easily going to break all of Sachin's run scoring records. But it's very difficult to sustain that level of brilliance for more than half a dozen years at a time.

My point is that Kohli is in a ridiculous purple patch right now, possibly one that is greater than anyone else's before him (though Amla's was pretty damn memorable at the time). But that's not necessarily a reason to rate him as a better player than Viv or Bevan or ABDV or Tendulkar quite yet (though personally I do rate him as being better than Tendulkar).

And if you need any evidence that form can turn quickly on players, look at Shaun Marsh. Averaged 60 last calendar year and now isn't even playing for Australia, despite Australia missing their two best batsmen.
Kohli vs ABD is a bit different from Tendulkar vs Ponting though.

When Ponting was having the peak between 2002-07, he was better than Sachin and was close to reaching a point where he could break the run scoring records in tests. He needed to do it a few years more and couldn't as you mentioned.

In Kohli's case he had already scored more runs and far more hundreds than ABD in lesser matches by the time ABD retired.

Timing of the comparison is crucial here. Kohli is not being compared to ABD in 2015 when the latter was clearly better. In 2019, former has a few more runs, lot more hundreds and several gun chases.
 
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Bolo

State Captain
That's exactly my point though. Chasing is more important than finishing, so therefore Kohli being a better chaser is more important than ABdV being a better finisher.
I'm dividing roles in a different way to you. Setting vs chasing and top vs finishing.

AB is better at setting and Virat is better at chasing. Neither is a better player in this regard because they rach have one strength, but I would rather pick a player who is better at chasing to play in a typical team because other bats are likely to be worse at chasing.

I'm not sure how ABs finishing compares to Kohli's top order batting in quality. A top order will always have more opportunity to influence a match, so I'd default to this being more valuable. It's not so clear with AB though- he batted lower because RSA thought they got the most value out of him by doing so because he was better able to cover for other weaknesses in the team by doing so. The logic is sound, but I have no idea if the idea was right.

Kohli is more of a specialist and AB more of an allround bat. Hard to compare.

Anyway, too early in Kohli's career to make a call between him and AB considering how close they are. Kohli could end up with an average in the mid 60s or mid 50s. Both seem very likely, and there is a clear (different) answer either way.
 

sunilz

International Regular
Of course he was talking about ODIs. The whole thread has been about ODIs
If he is talking about ODIs then he is clearly wrong imo . Where are the stats to back up the claim that Devilliers wins you more game in ODIs ?
 

Burgey

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I don’t ****ing know sunilz. I didn’t make the claim.

Where’s your proof Paul Keating wouldn’t have stood for Brexit?

Oh that’s right, you didn’t make that claim. But I’ll ask you to justify it anyway because I’m a massive Spud who’s incapable of rational discourse when it comes to a pet subject of mine.
 

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