Placing our bets on "Test Cricket's Young Fab Four"

[Bijed]

Interesting that all of the England batsmen on Bijed's query have a relatively low 50's/100 conversion rate. I don't follow them too closely outside of ashes series but i'm assuming they often get to 300ish with no centurions but 2/3 players making 50's?

Accurate enough as a rule of thumb. Normally a contribution or two down the order as well. Even when someone does make a century, it doesn't feel like they very often go on to make it a really big one these days.

 

[watson]

Don't be fooled by KW's average as that query is very general.

Here's a much more telling stat for me.

If we can all agree that since 2000 the best 5 tests sides have been Australia, England, South Africa, India & Pakistan (in no order), this is where Root & Smith really show their worth, with Kohli not far behind.

In fact Root & Smith have the best records against top quality opposition of all batsmen since 2000s, both averaging over 55. Meanwhile, against top opposition Kohli averages 51 & KW way down below 40.

In KW's case, he generally relies on murdering relatively weak Windies and SL attacks, and he did admittedly do well on some roads in Australia in 2015.(Not so well in the more difficult deck in the Adelaide Test though).

I do think this is a fair indicator that at least against the best opposition out there, Smith, Root & Kohli (not far behind) are well ahead of KW, who only comes closer once the Windies, SL, NZ & the minnows are brought into the equation. Hell even Ross Taylor has done better against the top sides than KW if we're honest about it.

Best average with min 2000 runs vs. Eng/Aus/Pak/SA/India since the year 2000

In that case either Smith or Kohli will be remembered as the greatest batsman of their generation. Unfortunately Root needs to improve his conversion rate if he is to move ahead of these two - 9 centuries when you've passed 50 runs 32 times isn't very good

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, India at home are certainly borderline great. If Smith can at the very least average 45+ that's icing on the cake.

Well that'd put him on par in India with Root who averaged 49 IIRC wouldn't it

 

[Zinzan]

In that case either Smith or Kohli will be remembered as the greatest batsman of their generation. Unfortunately Root needs to improve his conversion rate if he is to move ahead of these two - 9 centuries when you've passed 50 runs 32 times isn't very good

I don't know about this. It's the old argument of whether it's better to have 6 innings in a series of

1
22
129
14
102
3
or

33
67
59
41
53
54

When both effectively average the same, the old argument of big scores and misses vs. consistency.

 

[Zinzan]

I think the fab 4 is a fab 4 but Smith has a gap at 1 ahead of the other 3. I don't think that's an outrageous statement right now. Tons do matter.

I think if you really need to break down where they've played of late and against what attacks, I don't really think that's fair to put Smith ahead of Root at this point in time, just because he's bashing Pakistan at home. He's had the easier of the recent paths and has done brilliantly admittedly, but Root has been pretty damn good too considering what's he's had to face.

If Smith ends up outdoing Root's runs and average in India, I would say he's sneaked ahead slightly. If he averages 30 like KW did, I think that might suggest Root is the better player for all conditions atm.

I will say this of Smith, there's no doubt on those Australia pitches he's almost impossible to dismiss cheaply.

 

[Spark]

Smith is almost impossible to consistently dismiss cheaply almost anywhere tbf, and if he gets in you're basically doomed.

I don't know about this. It's the old argument of whether it's better to have 6 innings in a series of

1
22
129
14
102
3
or

33
67
59
41
53
54

When both effectively average the same, the old argument of big scores and misses vs. consistency.

Depends when those big scores come. If those big scores are first innings top order hundreds, then you would take that every single time, because often in those situations the second innings is far less important. First innings 130 as part of a big total + second innings failure > first innings 50, second innings 50, but same total of runs. Especially when the team is relying on you to be the main batsman, as is the case for both Root and Smith.

 

[Burgey]

I think if you really need to break down where they've played of late and against what attacks, I don't really think that's fair to put Smith ahead of Root at this point in time, just because he's bashing Pakistan at home. He's had the easier of the recent paths and has done brilliantly admittedly, but Root has been pretty damn good too considering what's he's had to face.

If Smith ends up outdoing Root's runs and average in India, I would say he's sneaked ahead slightly. If he averages 30 like KW did, I think that might suggest Root is the better player for all conditions atm.

I will say this of Smith, there's no doubt on those Australia pitches he's almost impossible to dismiss cheaply.

Fmd mate, he's just played in five consecutive test losses and in a side which has routinely collapsed around him.

He's scored runs everywhere and against everyone. Of course today he went on a rampage against a demoralised side, but that doesn't detract from his performances over the last 2-3 years.

I know his 160 odd not out wasn't as visually appealing as Kane caressing one on one knee to cover for a dot in his beautiful looking seven or as lovely as a Root defensive shot as part of a middling 60, but Smith scores a **** load, against everyone. Pick apart his stats all you like, but he does. And he makes big tons as he does it.

Right now he's clearly the best batsman in the world. May not be in a year's time, but right now he is.

 

[Spark]

I don't think Root's conversion rate is a problem in itself, but more that it often tends to reflect innings like this. His counterattacking innings are a cut above, but he does get out at some horrible times for the team on occasion too. Like, say what you want about KW and Smith and even Kohli, there is no way they are putting it down long off's throat at 3/79 with a new batsman at the crease and 450 in opposition. You have to take the rough with the smooth, though, I guess.

The sky's the limit for him though. If he can iron it out, he could become a more consistent version of 2013-4 Clarke and that would be something truly special to watch.

 

[vcs]

Fair play, I was really going for the 50's/100's thing to confirm Furball's point about Root, but included the other stats for completeness and probably didn't look into them in enough detail.

I'm personally less inclined than many to disregard to whatever extent runs against alleged minnows as they can certainly still bowl well and you've still got to work to score the runs, but I don't want to argue over that.

I do think it's fairer here to look at their stats over a more recent period, as they're all acknowledged to have improved massively after fairly average starts, so I've rerun your table with a same start date as I used earlier (and the qualification reduced to 1000 runs)

View attachment 23075

KW stats are much better here, though still comfortably behind the others, so I'm happy to conclude that he's not better than Roooooot after all

Also realised that my first run of the stats missed Smith's ton in the ongoing test, not that I've cast him in a bad light because of this.

Kohli's good SA tour also just gets missed out in this table, I think.

 

[morgieb]

I don't think Root's conversion rate is a problem in itself, but more that it often tends to reflect innings like this. His counterattacking innings are a cut above, but he does get out at some horrible times for the team on occasion too. You have to take the rough with the smooth, though, I guess.

The sky's the limit for him though. If he can iron it out, he could become a more consistent version of 2013-4 Clarke and that would be something truly special to watch.

Getting Clarke's dominant spell wrong or? Was thinking his best was 2011/12.

 

[Spark]

Getting Clarke's dominant spell wrong or? Was thinking his best was 2011/12.

Ah my mistake. 2011-2013 let's say.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think you're underrating Clarke in 2011-13

He scored double centuries for fun

 

[Spark]

I think you're underrating Clarke in 2011-13

He scored double centuries for fun

Oh I haven't forgotten

 

[Blocky]

Kohli and Smith bat in conditions where multiple players average 50s.
Root and Williamson bat in conditions where no one other than them average 50s.

More and more, due to the conditions that players play in, and the fact that wickets have lost all character (Waca is no longer fast, bouncey and a nightmare for batsmen, SCG is no longer a pitch that offers turn in Day 3 and lets sides turn it around, MCG is no longer a seaming wicket that you have to play tough to get tough runs on), combined with bats that mean mis-timed hits are going boundary wise. Australia are fast becoming reverse India - handy in sublime batting conditions where their fielding and aptitude for staying in all day rather than giving it away puts them at an edge at home against most sides, but they'll get done in, in tough conditions against sides that don't mentally combust.

 

[Blocky]

And before you start arguing, Smith himself already said that his side has no clue how to play in moving conditions (i.e Sri Lanka)

 

[vic_orthdox]

I don't know, there have been some conditions in India that's been pretty darn bowler friendly in the last few years - lets see what happens towards the end of their summer when all the wickets are a little more worn.

 

[morgieb]

I won't deny that Smith on average plays in the most batting friendly conditions of the lot, but you're kidding yourself if you think Indian wickets are significantly more batting-friendly in recent years on average than England or New Zealand.

 

[vic_orthdox]

They may well be batting friendly when we're bowling on them to be fair.

 

[Blocky]

I don't know, there have been some conditions in India that's been pretty darn bowler friendly in the last few years - lets see what happens towards the end of their summer when all the wickets are a little more worn.

That's what I said above, Kohli and Smith both get to bat in such favorable conditions, especially Kohli considering he faces Gareth Batty when sides wrongly think **** spinners are going to be useful in India.

 

[Slifer]

Kohli and Smith bat in conditions where multiple players average 50s.
Root and Williamson bat in conditions where no one other than them average 50s.

More and more, due to the conditions that players play in, and the fact that wickets have lost all character (Waca is no longer fast, bouncey and a nightmare for batsmen, SCG is no longer a pitch that offers turn in Day 3 and lets sides turn it around, MCG is no longer a seaming wicket that you have to play tough to get tough runs on), combined with bats that mean mis-timed hits are going boundary wise. Australia are fast becoming reverse India - handy in sublime batting conditions where their fielding and aptitude for staying in all day rather than giving it away puts them at an edge at home against most sides, but they'll get done in, in tough conditions against sides that don't mentally combust.

Id like to know these conditions where only kw and root average 50 and Smith does not??