QDK or Jos?

[cnerd123]

It's not a draft though, I don't think it's right to compare then that way.

I figured if I can only pick 1 of them to be in a ODI XI right now, I'd rather have Jos. There are more alternatives to QDK than there are to Jos.

 

[indiaholic]

Because you can only have one keeper. What they going to do, stand behind each other?

Gosh.

Leg slip IMO. The most important position in ODIs.

 

[sunilreddy]

Kamran Akmal

 

[Daemon]

I figured if I can only pick 1 of them to be in a ODI XI right now, I'd rather have Jos. There are more alternatives to QDK than there are to Jos.

Not sure whether we're discussing who's more valuable or who's a better cricketer

 

[Spikey]

Calls to drop the gloves happen every time a keeper-batsman has a good run of scores. Why? It's incredibly beneficial to have a keeper who plays like a genuine batsman.

yeah, when you're shoving them at 7 anyway like with Wade, the call makes sense, but for both these two, it's fine.

 

[cnerd123]

Not sure whether we're discussing who's more valuable or who's a better cricketer

Yea I just answered the question differently I guess.

Having said that, being 'more valuable' and being 'better' dont have to be mutually exclusive. Depends on how you define 'better'. Butler is further ahead of his peers in his role atm than QDK is; that suggests he is better at his role than QDK is. Shouldn't that count towards Butler?

 

[StephenZA]

Yea I just answered the question differently I guess.

Having said that, being 'more valuable' and being 'better' dont have to be mutually exclusive. Depends on how you define 'better'. Butler is further ahead of his peers in his role atm than QDK is; that suggests he is better at his role than QDK is. Shouldn't that count towards Butler?

This goes all the way back to whom he is competing with in his position, you tend to have better quality batsmen at the top of the order than lower down the order 6/7... so if you consider Jos in QDK role would he have the same impact.. I think no chance. Do I think that QDK could play the role of a successful finisher, yes. But QDK is used at the top of the order for SA as he is not required at 5/6 as a finisher with AB and Behardien in the team....

So now my question is who is the more talented player? Who is possibly going to go on and do great things for his country (keeping wicket or not) then I would go with QDK everyday of the week and twice on Sun and Mon. But this is my biased opinion from what I`ve seen of both of them..

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

Yea I just answered the question differently I guess.

Having said that, being 'more valuable' and being 'better' dont have to be mutually exclusive. Depends on how you define 'better'. Butler is further ahead of his peers in his role atm than QDK is; that suggests he is better at his role than QDK is. Shouldn't that count towards Butler?

Value above replacement level is absolutely something that should be considered when picking a side. A way of thinking that permeates American sport but hasn't really made it's way overseas.

Anyways, it's the Kok for me. Love me some Kok.

 

[91Jmay]

QdK couldn't do what Jos does down the order though. Virtually nobody on the planet can, Maxwell aside.

 

[Dan]

What I find remarkable is that Buttler has never seemingly had an extended run of bad performances in ODIs with the bat. Even when he was batting horrifically in Tests, he was slamming 'em in ODIs.

The nature of his spot is that he'll probably fail more often than a top order player of equivalent quality, insofar as he has to smack sixes from ball one, but he always seems to bounce back from the failures and play a match-turning knock not long after. I know we've had discussions about whether or not form exists; Buttler in ODIs is a pretty good data point in contesting form as a thing. Ultra-consistent for a finisher. WAG.

The answer is Jos ftr. I don't even think Maxwell can play some of the innings Jos has played.

 

[indiaholic]

Doing a form analysis for his career will just lead to sample size issues.

 

[cnerd123]

Value above replacement level is absolutely something that should be considered when picking a side. A way of thinking that permeates American sport but hasn't really made it's way overseas.

Anyways, it's the Kok for me. Love me some Kok.

I thought you were going to agree with me but then you didn't.

Im not going to ask if QDK could do what Jos does or vice versa; trying to argue based on untestable hypotheticals is meaningless. They both have shaped their games to suit their roles, and while there is merit in discussing their techniques and questioning if they could adapt to the other's roles, I'm not going to use that as a basis for evaluating them. Not going to judge a cricketer on cricket he hasn't played.

 

[indiaholic]

I am swayed by *****'s argument. I was only slightly in favour of the **** and now I am swinging over to the other side.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I thought you were going to agree with me but then you didn't.

Im not going to ask if QDK could do what Jos does or vice versa; trying to argue based on untestable hypotheticals is meaningless. They both have shaped their games to suit their roles, and while there is merit in discussing their techniques and questioning if they could adapt to the other's roles, I'm not going to use that as a basis for evaluating them. Not going to judge a cricketer on cricket he hasn't played.

I wasn't really making any point in regards to these two guys, I was agreeing that value above replacement should be used more then basically said I like de Kok more, for no real reason other than I'd rather watch him bat. The two parts of the post were largely unrelated.

 

[cnerd123]

So now my question is who is the more talented player? Who is possibly going to go on and do great things for his country (keeping wicket or not) then I would go with QDK everyday of the week and twice on Sun and Mon. But this is my biased opinion from what I`ve seen of both of them..

1) Talent is such a vague concept. How would you event quanitfy it
2) If we're talking ODIs only, then I don't think its clearly obvious atm which one of them will do greater things for their country. They're both likely to be mainstays for their sides for many years to come.

Also I didn't say it outright before, but I completely disagree with the notion that a number 5/6 batsman has to be inferior to a top order one because teams will always play the best batsmen up top. Thats just not true. Maxwell isn't worse than Finch/SMarsh. QDK isn't better than ABDV.

 

[Furball]

What I find remarkable is that Buttler has never seemingly had an extended run of bad performances in ODIs with the bat. Even when he was batting horrifically in Tests, he was slamming 'em in ODIs.

The nature of his spot is that he'll probably fail more often than a top order player of equivalent quality, insofar as he has to smack sixes from ball one, but he always seems to bounce back from the failures and play a match-turning knock not long after. I know we've had discussions about whether or not form exists; Buttler in ODIs is a pretty good data point in contesting form as a thing. Ultra-consistent for a finisher. WAG.

The answer is Jos ftr. I don't even think Maxwell can play some of the innings Jos has played.

I'm sure Buttler was absolute rubbish when he started playing ODIs for England. It was his T20 exploits that meant the selectors kept faith in him IIRC*

*I might be completely wrong on this one

 

[Howe_zat]

His early career was littered with low scores that made his average look pants but he actually had plenty of really fast-striking slog overs innings that would usually be him batting for two overs, hitting three boundaries and then getting out.

2nd innings: 14 off 9 balls v India
3rd innings: 21 off 13 balls v NZ
7th innings: 47* off 28 balls v NZ

Then in the middle of 2013 he started hitting fifties and the figures started to sort themselves out. But even when he averaged in single figures people could see his value, I think. Also his List A record has always been mint so I think the idea of him relying on T20 for faith is a bit out.

 

[AndrewB]

His early career was littered with low scores that made his average look pants but he actually had plenty of really fast-striking slog overs innings that would usually be him batting for two overs, hitting three boundaries and then getting out.

I like the Cricinfo commentary on his first decent T20 innings for England (he had a pretty poor start in those, too.) He'd faced one ball (single) in the game before this over:

"I haven't seen much of Buttler, but above Bairstow in such a situation?" We shall see Rahul...although Buttler hasn't done much in an international so far...

9.1: Parnell to Buttler, SIX, but oh my goodness what a shot this is, stand and deliver. He shuffles back in the crease and heaves it straight over the bowler's head, it goes miles back, a huge strike
9.2: Parnell to Buttler, SIX, and again! Outside off stump this time and banged straight down the ground again, supreme hitting this, is it Buttler's time now
9.3: Parnell to Buttler, 2 runs, fuller outside off, slapped just past extra cover for a couple
9.4: Parnell to Buttler, 1 no ball, too wide of off stump now but this is also a no-ball, whoops. So now a free hit, does he go back to the scoop, that's his shot...
9.4: Parnell to Buttler, (no ball) FOUR, yes he does and pulls it off beautifully, gets it well over short long leg and away for four, and another no-ball! Shocking. Free Hit #2...
9.4: Parnell to Buttler, FOUR, length outside off stump but Buttler steps outside off and scoops again to fine leg for a one bounce four, super shot again. 24 from the over...
9.5: Parnell to Buttler, SIX, length on middle stump and this is smashed into the stands over midwicket, another wonderful strike, this is special stuff
9.6: Parnell to Buttler, 2 runs, another pull out to midwicket, a fumble lets them back for the second

There you go Rahul!

 

[Burner]

Saw that Buttler averages almost 46 with a strike rate of 120 in his List A career. That's pretty ridiculous.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Depends what your side needs in the batting really. If you have good openers then you will probably plump for Buttler over QDK. If you have crap openers then QDK is an obvious choice.