The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

So, made a team with 1 player from each test nation, plus an associate player.

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman*
Andy Flower+
Garry Sobers
Shakib al Hasan
Imran Khan
Ryan ten Doeschate
Richard Hadlee
Dale Steyn
Muttiah Muralitharan

 

[harsh.ag]

As far as I'm concerned there are only two candidates for the all time XI. Alan Knott if you want the best keeper or Adam Gilchrist if you're settling for a Test class keeper of lesser ability but who is also a Test class batsman.

Know what you are saying, but Knott was, by many accounts, surpassed by Taylor on pure keeping skills. I know done to death etc.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Know what you are saying, but Knott was, by many accounts, surpassed by Taylor on pure keeping skills. I know done to death etc.

It's not the same as the modern day selection issues where a good batsman who's a semi-competent keeper is chosen instead of a "pure" keeper. They were both great keepers and it's open to debate who was better. Personally I think Knott was superior and would still be chosen irrespective of batting skills.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's not the same as the modern day selection issues where a good batsman who's a semi-competent keeper is chosen instead of a "pure" keeper. They were both great keepers and it's open to debate who was better. Personally I think Knott was superior and would still be chosen irrespective of batting skills.

Despite Taylor standing up to pacers and doing it wonderfully?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Despite Taylor standing up to pacers and doing it wonderfully?

Minimal use, bordering on pointless.

 

[harsh.ag]

Minimal use, bordering on pointless.

Yeah, but we're talking about better keeping skills. Surely that's relevant. Standing back and taking catches off fast bowlers is the least fussy part of the job, and pretty much any keeper can do that.

 

[smash84]

Yeah, but we're talking about better keeping skills. Surely that's relevant. Standing back and taking catches off fast bowlers is the least fussy part of the job, and pretty much any keeper can do that.

except kamran khatmal, or is he the exception that proves the rule?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Yeah, but we're talking about better keeping skills. Surely that's relevant. Standing back and taking catches off fast bowlers is the least fussy part of the job, and pretty much any keeper can do that.

He would occasionally stand up to someone of the pace of Mike Hendrick if the batsman was batting a foot outside the crease. If you're choosing the best Test keeper it's not even worth discussing.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah, but we're talking about better keeping skills. Surely that's relevant. Standing back and taking catches off fast bowlers is the least fussy part of the job, and pretty much any keeper can do that.

He would occasionally stand up to someone of the pace of Mike Hendrick if the batsman was batting a foot outside the crease. If you're choosing the best Test keeper it's not even worth discussing.

The difference is are you selecting a keeper for an ATG team or are you simply deciding who was the more skilled wicket keeper? I am assuming the answer would differ based on the question.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The difference is are you selecting a keeper for an ATG team or are you simply deciding who was the more skilled wicket keeper? I am assuming the answer would differ based on the question.

My answer wouldn't differ. The answer to both would be Alan Knott. As I said in my original post that lead to Harsh's comments, there are two candidates for the ATG XI. Alan Knott if you're choosing the best keeper, or Gilchrist if you're settling for a lesser but still Test class keeper who's also a Test class batsman.

 

[harsh.ag]

The difference is are you selecting a keeper for an ATG team or are you simply deciding who was the more skilled wicket keeper? I am assuming the answer would differ based on the question.

Well, it began with "As far as I'm concerned there are only two candidates for the all time XI. Alan Knott if you want the best keeper...."

 

[harsh.ag]

A nice piece on Taylor

Bob Taylor: The Rolls-Royce among wicketkeepers - Latest Cricket News, Articles & Videos at CricketCountry.com

As Bill Frindall had said once, “Such was his [Taylor’s] positioning that he seldom had to dive and was rarely seen sprawled on the ground; his timing was so precise that fielder close to him rarely heard the ball meet the glove.”

That was possibly the greatest attribute about Taylor. Unlike most of the greats, Taylor was seldom noticed on the cricket ground. He did not dive a lot; he moved early enough to anticipate the line and usually gathered the ball while in a lithe gliding movement; he was brilliant against the bouncing ball. And as Frindall had mentioned, his action was so smooth and well-timed that the collection of the ball was almost silent.

The other amazing aspect of Taylor’s wicketkeeping was the fact that he never hesitated to stand up to the stumps — even while ‘keeping to pace. His agility, reflex, and skills were so good that he often dismissed the idea of standing back. “Any decent slip catcher could do it standing back,” he used to say. He used to call standing up his ‘philosophy’.
Wisden called his wicketkeeping “artistry — there is no other word for it — behind the stumps has long illumined even the darkest hours of Derbyshire cricket”

In fact, Taylor was so good a wicketkeeper that when he dropped a rare catch off the tearaway Derbyshire bowler Alan Ward the latter had to check with both the batsman and Taylor himself that the impossible had happened before he could believe it!

Unlike most wicket-keepers (especially those who have kept wickets to quality pace – Knott included) Taylor used minimal padding inside his gloves. He even scraped off the padding inside his gloves, cut the webbings, and used only one pair of inner gloves – that too without wetting them: he basically wanted to feel the ball as much as possible so that gathering the ball would be easy.

This obviously increased the possibility of palm injury: when questioned on this Taylor responded that once he started gathering the ball cleanly there would be no question of a bruise. He never broke a single finger while wicket-keeping in his entire career.

 

[honestbharani]

My answer wouldn't differ. The answer to both would be Alan Knott. As I said in my original post that lead to Harsh's comments, there are two candidates for the ATG XI. Alan Knott if you're choosing the best keeper, or Gilchrist if you're settling for a lesser but still Test class keeper who's also a Test class batsman.

Well, it began with "As far as I'm concerned there are only two candidates for the all time XI. Alan Knott if you want the best keeper...."

Again, best doesn't always equate to the "most skilled", at least to me...

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Like any great keeper, or indeed most other skills, the best techniques are the simplest and most effective. Despite what a lot of people think Alan Knott had a very simple technique. His idiosyncratic habits and hyperactivity between deliveries wrongly makes some people think he was a show pony as well.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Again, best doesn't always equate to the "most skilled", at least to me...

I'm not sure what you mean. But anyway to me Alan Knott is the best keeper, the most skilled keeper and my choice for the ATG XI.

 

[JBMAC]

My answer wouldn't differ. The answer to both would be Alan Knott. As I said in my original post that lead to Harsh's comments, there are two candidates for the ATG XI. Alan Knott if you're choosing the best keeper, or Gilchrist if you're settling for a lesser but still Test class keeper who's also a Test class batsman.

NO way Hosay.

 

[harsh.ag]

NO way Hosay.

Haha, that JBMAC is really old and really white comes across beautifully here

So who is your pick for best keeper: Tallon, Taylor or Oldfield? Or Taylor's mentor Keith Andrew?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

NO way Hosay.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by the random bolding of part sentences.
Alan Knott would be my answer to both. You might be old enough to have seen more of the great keepers than I have, but the fact that you rate Engineer above Knott renders your opinion of other keepers very questionable.

 

[harsh.ag]

More from Taylor on keeping

Bob Taylor: 'Standing up to the wicket is what keeping is all about' | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

The only practical way I know of getting the wicketkeeper to concentrate is, every time the batsman plays the ball - and, as I say, on a good wicket, a good batsman will play the ball more often than not - you should, in that split-second when a batsman plays it, imagine the ball comes through to you and actually go through the motions of taking it. Every time. It stands to reason that if you've got into those habits, when the batsman goes out of his crease and misses the ball, you're halfway there. Your hands will be in the right place and you're watching the ball all the time.
When wicketkeepers miss stumpings, the two mistakes they make are they get up too soon, so their arms and hands come above their waist, and they anticipate that the batsman is going to hit the ball, and are looking to where they think he's going to hit it. The only way I know to correct that is, when you come up from the crouch position and straighten your knees, keep your hands below your knees so if the ball keeps low you can take it, and if it bounces you can come up in the air with it.

When you're standing up, try and stand as close as you can, because the closer you are, the less deviation off the bat when the batsman nicks it, the more chance of it hitting your palm rather than the outside of your thumb." Obviously, it still takes a lot of skill. You've got to get your hands outside the line of the ball.

Knotty became more full-time with England and I think that's when Jack started to get all his idiosyncrasies. Whether they were standing up or back, Jack and Alec were facing cover for a period, but at the last second they were turning to be square-on. I asked Jack, Alec, and eventually Knotty what the theory was behind this, and he said that, if you're standing up, particularly if the ball bounced, your hips were out of the way.

I said to Knotty, "Well, if the ball bounces, it's an automatic reaction for your hips to turn, anyway. They've got to try and take the ball. I can see where you're coming from, but doesn't it make it harder for a normal wicketkeeper - not a Test wicketkeeper, who's got ability, or a county keeper even - to take the ball down the leg side?" He'd have to over-correct his position. There was no automatic explanation, so I thought it's just a theory that's being passed on. I said to Alec Stewart, "You stand open, but to take the ball you correct your position. Why do it in the first place?" He said: "Because Knotty told me."

And why do wicketkeepers take the ball like a matador with his cape, taking their body away from the ball? It's all come from Australia. They take the ball away from the body. I've talked to Rod Marsh, I've talked to Ian Healy, I've talked to Adam Gilchrist, and I can't get a straightforward answer. I've spoken to Bruce French - who's teaching the theory as well - and he can't give me a proper answer, other than: "It inspires the rest of the fielders." I'm sorry, I don't understand.

I coached Frenchy when he started at Nottingham. I said, "Bruce, we've always been taught - particularly standing back - that you get your body behind the line of the ball, so you've got a second line of defence. It encourages you to move your feet".

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by the random bolding of part sentences.
Alan Knott would be my answer to both. You might be old enough to have seen more of the great keepers than I have, but the fact that you rate Engineer above Knott renders your opinion of other keepers very questionable.

Engineer had some hectic spinners to keep to on tough pitches. Not that keeping to Underwood would be easy necessarily but both had difficult jobs.
I think the speed Wally Grout could affect a stumping was pretty phenomenal, compared to any other I've seen