"Greatest Ever" Lists - A Modern Evolution

[Ruckus]

I remember going through a heap of old cricket footage to see what it was like back then.

Arthur Mold Bowling to A.N. Hornby (1901) - YouTube

Their accomplishments in the game at the time are what make them All Time Greats. That being said if you were selecting a list of the best cricketers of all time then really most of these guys bar the extraodinary players like the Bradman's etc should miss out.

I can't imagine a Dale Steyn or a Shane Bond playing in those days.

haha a nice summary of the essay I just wrote really.

 

[Howe_zat]

I remember going through a heap of old cricket footage to see what it was like back then.

Arthur Mold Bowling to A.N. Hornby (1901) - YouTube

Their accomplishments in the game at the time are what make them All Time Greats. That being said if you were selecting a list of the best cricketers of all time then really most of these guys bar the extraodinary players like the Bradman's etc should miss out.

I can't imagine a Dale Steyn or a Shane Bond playing in those days.

The Age of Moustaches

 

[Flem274*]

The Age of Moustaches

And trousers around your chest.

 

[silentstriker]

I remember going through a heap of old cricket footage to see what it was like back then.

Arthur Mold Bowling to A.N. Hornby (1901) - YouTube

Their accomplishments in the game at the time are what make them All Time Greats. That being said if you were selecting a list of the best cricketers of all time then really most of these guys bar the extraodinary players like the Bradman's etc should miss out.

I can't imagine a Dale Steyn or a Shane Bond playing in those days.

I haven't read through AN's argument for why he doesn't rate Grace as an all time great, but I 100% agree with the fact that we shouldn't be rating him as an all time great cricketer.

Grace dominated his era, that's undisputable, however the cricket he played back then is totally different to the game we see in the last 100 years, it's basically another sport.

I'm of the firm belief that if you bring Sir Braddles up in todays day and age he will still dominate the game because the skills are transferable, however with Grace it is actually impossible to say he would be good, never mind as dominant as he was against his peers because he played a different game against players which were frankly not serious.

I mean he could be an ATG, as much as Usain Bolt could have been an ATG if he played cricket, or Albert Einstein could have been. We have no way of knowing, but when in doubt you tend to say no because the burden has to be on the proving he is an ATG player.

Grace's impact on cricket as a sport is close to unrivaled, however that doesn't make him an all time great cricketer. Grace's aura and persona and standing in the game is what blinds people. He has legendary stories about him, he's almost a fictional character. That's better for the game than an ATG player, but if we're judging on skills, you can't hand on heart have him as one of the best of all time.

Completely agree.

I don't have problems with people putting people like Grace in lists like this but if people think the type of skills you see in that video are trancerrable, they're kidding themselves.

Though tbf, I haven't seen many if any examples of anyone putting Grace as a batsman in their all time XI, which is right.

As Benchy says, if Grace were born in 1985, would he be a Test cricketer today? He might have, but there is no way to know. It may be called cricket and it shares many of the same rules, but it's really just not the same sport.

 

[Prince EWS]

I don't understand, do people here actually believe the game hasn't actually improved at all (at some absolute level), but it is merely different, between, say, Grace's era and the modern one?

No; people just think it's irrelevant.

 

[zaremba]

Transferability of skills is, I think, a somewhat misleading measure of how great a cricketer a particular player was. As we all acknowledge, it's pretty much impossible to know how good Grace would be were he to play today, with modern training and benefitting from the technical developments in batting that have come about since his time etc. There are just too many imponderables, although it's pretty clear that he was exceptionally good at hitting cricket balls with a cricket bat, which augurs well.

To say that Grace is disqualified from having the status of all-time great cricketer because the game he played wasn't cricket as we know it is a very odd proposition. The one thing that I think we ought to be able to agree on is that WG Grace played cricket ffs.

 

[Prince EWS]

Transferability of skills is, I think, a somewhat misleading measure of how great a cricketer a particular player was. As we all acknowledge, it's pretty much impossible to know how good Grace would be were he to play today, with modern training and benefitting from the technical developments in batting that have come about since his time etc. There are just too many imponderables, although it's pretty clear that he was exceptionally good at hitting cricket balls with a cricket bat, which augurs well.

To say that Grace is disqualified from having the status of all-time great cricketer because the game he played wasn't cricket as we know it is a very odd proposition. The one thing that I think we ought to be able to agree on is that WG Grace played cricket ffs.

 

[benchmark00]

Cricket by name only.

 

[unam]

Do you know Agent that Imran's figures are not reliable because Imran was from the privileged class of Mianwali and while his domestic servants would be able to bowl significantly quicker than him but they never got the opportunity to play for Pakistan and hence Imran's record cannot be taken seriously

 

[silentstriker]

I mean the record for the fastest mile was 4:14 or something in 1913. I don't think that time would even qualify anymore.

Now maybe if John Paul Jones were the same age as the current fastest atheletes (I think the record is 3:43 or something now) - people are going to say he could be competitive? It's possible but a total guess. Things change, standards improve much more than we give credit for.

Same thing with the fastest bowlers competition in 1979, with the exception of a couple, many of those players average speeds would not be out of place in a Indian XI (Thommo the notable exception - being much faster despite not being in playing shape AND being well past his best in terms of speed). I'm not suggesting that guys like Holding, Lillee and others who were in that competiton wouldnt be in an all time side but the average speeds have improved in just 30 years, let alone a hundred.

He played "cricket" but not "our" cricket.

 

[zaremba]

WG Grace didn't really play cricket. You heard it here first.

The Spitfire was a great fighter, even though it wouldn't stand a chance in combat today, and even though the air combat today is very different from the air combat of 1940.

Rod Laver was a great tennis player, even though the game has changed since his day and his style might not be successful now.

Ancient Rome was a great city even though in many respects it's left for dead by modern day S****horpe.


Edit: forgot what the filter would do to Scun_thorpe.

 

[GIMH]

WG Grace didn't really play cricket. You heard it here first.

The Spitfire was a great fighter, even though it wouldn't stand a chance in combat today, and even though the air combat today is very different from the air combat of 1940.

Rod Laver was a great tennis player, even though the game has changed since his day and his style might not be successful now.

Ancient Rome was a great city even though in many respects it's left for dead by modern day S****horpe.


Edit: forgot what the filter would do to Scun_thorpe.

Gone too far with that last one

 

[benchmark00]

WG Grace didn't really play cricket. You heard it here first.

The Spitfire was a great fighter, even though it wouldn't stand a chance in combat today, and even though the air combat today is very different from the air combat of 1940.

Rod Laver was a great tennis player, even though the game has changed since his day and his style might not be successful now.

Ancient Rome was a great city even though in many respects it's left for dead by modern day S****horpe.


Edit: forgot what the filter would do to Scun_thorpe.

This is just a **** post mate, actually debate your point or **** right off.

 

[GIMH]

Ah what a classy response to a tongue in cheek post

 

[benchmark00]

Ah what a classy response to a tongue in cheek post

As someone who started following cricket maybe 3 years ago I'm surprised you even know who Grace is.

 

[Mike5181]

Transferability of skills is, I think, a somewhat misleading measure of how great a cricketer a particular player was. As we all acknowledge, it's pretty much impossible to know how good Grace would be were he to play today, with modern training and benefitting from the technical developments in batting that have come about since his time etc. There are just too many imponderables, although it's pretty clear that he was exceptionally good at hitting cricket balls with a cricket bat, which augurs well.

To say that Grace is disqualified from having the status of all-time great cricketer because the game he played wasn't cricket as we know it is a very odd proposition. The one thing that I think we ought to be able to agree on is that WG Grace played cricket ffs.

You misinterpreted what everyone has been saying. No-one is arguing he's not an all time great. His accomplishments, influence and skill in the sport at the time he played is sufficient enough to leave that undisputed IMO.

Ask yourself this though. If you were to assemble the greatest cricketers of all time to play a game. Who would you select? The decision would have to factor in overall skill, technique and not just how far along they were for their time. The team would include guys like Bradman, Sobers, Marshall, Warne, Gilchrist, Tendulkar because they are the greatest cricket players to have played the game so far. There's no bonus points selection-wise for influence on the development of the game or best moustache or first to play. The absolute bona fide best players overall.

 

[Flem274*]

That's enough guys.

 

[GIMH]

As someone who started following cricket maybe 3 years ago I'm surprised you even know who Grace is.

See my join date, I guess numbers aren't your strong point

 

[GIMH]

That's enough guys.

Sorry Flem just seen this

 

[zaremba]

This is just a **** post mate, actually debate your point or **** right off.

Cut it out please. I have been debating the point and this sort of abuse doesn't help either the discussion or the forum atmosphere more generally.