Brett Lee's final Test wicket tally

[Matt79]

I'd rather Lee coming in with the new ball at next year's WC than MJ or Siddle....

sure you, and many others, would. My point is that I think Lee, and some others, are in a bit of denial regarding his chances of regaining sufficient fitness to make it back into the squad. Unless they're going to rush him back in without him demonstrating he can stay fit for more than 2 ODI games in a row. And given the bowling options that have emerged since he left the team - not just Mitch, but Bollinger, Harris, McKay or even Siddle, who's probably the weakest ODI bowler of that lot, rushing him back in that way would be unfair and silly.

Love Binga. No idea what Matt is talking about ftr, can still see him playing at least 20/20s for a bit yet.

I love the guy too, but I think physically he's shot. I hope he prooves me wrong. I'd rather Tait in the T20s ATM anyway.

 

[Richard]

Is there a genuine belief in Australia that, regardless of his results this summer, Harris has a chance of long-term ODI success?

McKay is a slightly different matter.

 

[Burgey]

Is there a genuine belief in Australia that, regardless of his results this summer, Harris has a chance of long-term ODI success?

McKay is a slightly different matter.

I think there is that thought, his approach up front with the new ball seems to be a good one - gets decent bounce, moves it a bit. Personally think we're entitled to reserve judgment though. Not sure how he'll go at the WC if picked - don't know that conditions will suit, but who can really say yet? Certainly made a very decent start.

 

[Richard]

Harris is, what, 30 years old, has been playing top-level cricket for a long while, and has never shown the slightest indication of being anything more than an average state pro.

The number of players who make the step-up from average domestic pro to international-standard player at the age of 30 can perhaps be counted on one hand. At least, in recent times.

 

[Craig]

TBF Harris could not be expected to have done any better then what he has, I guess we'll see how he goes in NZ and further on this year. I don't know if he will get picked for the Tests and in NZ, and maybe for the Tests in England, since Siddle will be in doubt for them, at this stage, but it wouldn't surprise me if he does.

 

[Top_Cat]

Harris is, what, 30 years old, has been playing top-level cricket for a long while, and has never shown the slightest indication of being anything more than an average state pro.

The number of players who make the step-up from average domestic pro to international-standard player at the age of 30 can perhaps be counted on one hand. At least, in recent times.

The exact reason why he's only kicked on the past couple of years is also a big reason I don't think he's a long-term pick; injury history. It's why he's in QLD too; SA refused to give him a 3-year contract because they weren't sure how often he was going to be on the park.

Personally, right now, I don't think he's a long-term pick, don't think he moves the ball consistently enough at present. That said, he only started pouring on the pace from his mid-20's, before that was maybe med-quick. Also, used to be a career number 11 with the bat (before playing state cricket) and now he's really a bowling all-rounder. He's incredibly determined and ****ing competitive and has gotten better with every level he's gone up so I wouldn't bet against him doing similar now he's gotten a few games at the highest level.

Would be shocked if he got a Test spot ahead of McKay, though.

 

[DaRick]

From what I've always understood, at least some of that had to do with mishandling from that supposedly oh so great captain Stephen Waugh. Most who watched him closely observed him to be a partially flawed tactician and his advice to Lee to keep bowling poorly rather than trying to bowl well certainly seem to have had some impact.

Yeah, that didn't help him. Waugh's advice to Lee was something along the lines of "bowl until you drop and always look to intimidate and scare the batsmen". Being of limited intelligence, Lee took this to mean bowling bouncers and yorkers for most of the day (rather than say, bowling decent lines and lengths with the odd throat ball). Of course, the fact that Waugh condoned this encouraged Lee to keep on doing it. It is also never a good idea to bowl express quicks into the ground.

Ponting told Lee to cut that crap out, so he mostly did - but being the way he is, he did have a few lapses, which apparently irritated Ponting to no end (his 2005 Ashes diary is instructive). For all of Ponting's improvements, Brett Lee still averaged around 29 in Test cricket whilst Ponting was in charge. Somebody with Lee's talent should've averaged around 25 at the most.

But that's why I rate Ponting as a better tactician than Waugh. He's more fluid with his tactics (though he has intermittenly been short-sighted) and realises that a mix of aggression and conservatism is most effective with teams of lesser ability.

But it's a decent question what might've happened had Lee played under a better captain like Mark Taylor.

He might then have been stuffed around by the selectors, TBH (AUS selections during Taylor's era could be quite strange, to say the least).

If he was allowed to get on the park consistently though, he might've had a better record, because Taylor rarely bowled players into the ground unless he had no other choice.

 

[Top_Cat]

He might then have been stuffed around by the selectors, TBH (AUS selections during Taylor's era could be quite strange, to say the least).

Had the right coloured state cap so he'd have been alright.

 

[Jono]

LOL! Marc has the right idea

People still keep replying to Streetwise expecting him to dare rate a non-Australian bowler higher than an Australian.

 

[Matt79]

Advancing Harris as an ODI option, not for tests, btw.

 

[Richard]

Yeah, that didn't help him. Waugh's advice to Lee was something along the lines of "bowl until you drop and always look to intimidate and scare the batsmen". Being of limited intelligence, Lee took this to mean bowling bouncers and yorkers for most of the day (rather than say, bowling decent lines and lengths with the odd throat ball). Of course, the fact that Waugh condoned this encouraged Lee to keep on doing it. It is also never a good idea to bowl express quicks into the ground.

Ponting told Lee to cut that crap out, so he mostly did - but being the way he is, he did have a few lapses, which apparently irritated Ponting to no end (his 2005 Ashes diary is instructive). For all of Ponting's improvements, Brett Lee still averaged around 29 in Test cricket whilst Ponting was in charge. Somebody with Lee's talent should've averaged around 25 at the most.

But that's why I rate Ponting as a better tactician than Waugh. He's more fluid with his tactics (though he has intermittenly been short-sighted) and realises that a mix of aggression and conservatism is most effective with teams of lesser ability.

Yup - some respects there's no question that Ponting is a better captain than Waugh was. Waugh of course lauded it over Ponting in the ability to keep his cool (didn't call him The Iceman for nothing) and was also less prone to making basic errors. But Ponting is certainly, in my book, better in terms of avoiding rigidity in tactic and also at recognising how to make the most of the skill of individuals (the two, inevitably, are interlinked).

 

[Edged&Taken]

Brett Lee quits Test cricket

Brett Lee has retired from Test Cricket
LINK

 

[BoyBrumby]

The exact reason why he's only kicked on the past couple of years is also a big reason I don't think he's a long-term pick; injury history. It's why he's in QLD too; SA refused to give him a 3-year contract because they weren't sure how often he was going to be on the park.

Personally, right now, I don't think he's a long-term pick, don't think he moves the ball consistently enough at present. That said, he only started pouring on the pace from his mid-20's, before that was maybe med-quick. Also, used to be a career number 11 with the bat (before playing state cricket) and now he's really a bowling all-rounder. He's incredibly determined and ****ing competitive and has gotten better with every level he's gone up so I wouldn't bet against him doing similar now he's gotten a few games at the highest level.

Would be shocked if he got a Test spot ahead of McKay, though.

Would've been playing for Sussex as a domestic player if QLD had been prepared to offer him an overseas contract too; actually played for them in the 2008 curtain raiser versus the MCC before he had to leave so he didn't queer his Bulls contract, if my memory serves. Quite the turnaround.

Looks stocky for a seamer tho, so can imagine him having woes with joints and stress fractures.

Anyway, shame to see Lee go like this. Always came across as a good guy and played the game in the right way (give or take the beamers and the occasionally penisy celebs). Was a bowler who always advanced the game one way or the other and, as such, was great to watch. Funnily enough his performance I remember best was the Loins game before the 09 Ashes; he was arsing about and Ponting threw him the ball in a fit of pique and Lee rolled back the years with a classic spell of hostile reverse swing to claim a Michelle. Was that kind of player.

 

[howardj]

In Tests, I think Lee was a very good bowler against weaker opposition, especially at home. However, he was often found wanting against good batting line ups. He's not the lone ranger there of course, but I do think his career needs to be put into context. He may be fourth on the all-time Test wickets for Australia, but that doesn't make him a 'great' Test bowler - as his 30+ average demonstrates.

 

[Richard]

Just off the top of my head, Australian seam bowlers I'd place comfortably ahead of Lee, of those who've played since the 1930s... (not to mention the Nobles, Cotters etc.)

Lindwall
Miller
Johnston
Davidson
McKenzie
Hawke
Lillee
Thomson
Walker
Alderman
Lawson
Hughes
McDermott
Reid
Reiffel
McGrath
Gillespie

The likes of Fleming, Kasprowicz and, it now seems, Clark might also be able to be said to be better had they gotten more of a chance and been ignored by diabolical selectors less frequently.

And of course with the likes of Johnson, Siddle, Hilfenhaus, Bollinger, McKay even, we wait to see how their careers will pan-out - all are merely starting right now.

 

[Streetwise]

Brett will be remembered by cricket lovers everywhere as an outstanding athlete, great fast bowler and a key part of Australia's success.

 

[stephen]

Has any other player peaked at either end of their career and done so horribly through the middle of it? It is almost the mirror image of every other cricketer who has ever played the game.

 

[Richard]

David Holford is one who did so to nowhere near such a spectacular extent as Lee... can't think of anyone else off the top of my head though.

Thing with Lee is his second peak period came not right at the end but towards the end... makes me more inclined to consider it simply random rather than particularly related to anything strategic.

 

[Nate]

awta

Haha, how good is new Marc?

 

[Richard]

Brett will be remembered by cricket lovers everywhere as an outstanding athlete, great fast bowler and a key part of Australia's success.

Maybe a few Australians who can see only good in Australian players might remember him as that, but most will likely remember him as, largely, a passenger whose team-mates were almost always good enough to carry him and not allow his marked inferiority to most\all of them to affect the team's success.

And a passenger who occasionally broke free from the depths of woefulness to achieve very brief spells of true excellence.