Cricketing Great Greg Chappell nominated in World's ***iest Vegetarian Celebrity poll

[jeevan]

This is the sort of post which infuriates. You're dealing with educated people here and you assume they're unaware? Do you honestly think the ridicule stems from ignorance?

Seriously, grow up. It's not about 'choosing' to use data, the data is the juice here. There's no serious consensus even on the construct/internal validity of measures used to inform half the stuff some environmentalists use. So, no, the 'evidence' is far from overwhelming.

Just to pick on the Vit B12 example again;

Guess what, the Vitamin B12 in meat products is produced by....

...bacteria. Same way that B12 gets into plant based foods.

You're not going to claim eating plants with the right bacteria will serve B12 needs are you? Because, sorry to say, it ain't the case. If you have access to an academic journal search;

Rauma AL, Torronen R, Hanninen O, Mykkanen H. Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet") is compromised. J Nutr. 1995 Oct;125(10):2511-5.

And the Indian example Redbacks mentioned essentially found that the Indian population only satisfied their VitB12 needs from bacteria because they had drinking water polluted by human faeces.

Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ. Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria. Nature. 1980;283(Feb 21):781-2.

This furthers the old theory that plant-eating animals satisfy their Vit B12 needs from eating their own faeces. Further confirmed by the classic study where vegans were fed extracts from their own stools (no kidding, wouldn't get past an ethics committee now that's for sure) which stopped their Vit B12 deficiency dead in its tracks;

Herbert V. Vitamin B-12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988;48:852-8.

This is from a 2 minute OVID search, I saw heaps more.

And, waddayaknow, even pro-vegan sites agree;

Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It? : Are Intestinal Bacteria a Reliable Source of B12?

The point? Even raw food adherents, faecal bacterial crawling all over their food, have to supplement. There's no way you can eat any non-meat foods and get all the B12 you need. Sure you could eat your own faeces but I doubt I'd have to post any studies to prove how bad that would be for you or mention all the other health problems the Indian population in the study above had.

</grump>

EDIT: Not that it matters but I don't eat a lot of red meat, ridiculously expensive anyway. Just tired of the propaganda.

And before you went off on your little rant there, what made you pre-suppose that I am advocating uncooked, "pure vegan" diets? (Geez, given that industrial farming is what is used to grow most vegetables too, and there've been at least two instances of serious contamination on that count in California in the last 2-3 years, one involving spinach - eating uncooked food wouldn't be the smartest thing to do where I happen to live).

[ BTW I've been talking of vegeterian not vegan, which in the case of most non-meat eating Indians tends to be a lacto-vegeterian diet or even an ovo-lacto-vegeterian diet. My family eats meat very infrequently, and I'm pretty sure that most of our B12 comes from dairy products.].

Go find your bogeymen some other place, me - I'm just trying to keep the planet in good enough shape for my kids. Hope you do not have a problem with that.

 

[Jono]

Nothing, but meat tastes better to many people.

Look, there's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian imo, and if you want to do it, that's fine. But some vegies are like Jehovah's Witnesess with their evangelical zeal, and that ****s me as much as it would **** you were some bastard to stand outside a vegetarian restaurant with a "Save the Lentils" placard.

Its called raising awareness.

When animals are being treated horribly in some of the worst conditions possibly imagineable, people ought to actually be made to know about it, and see what they are supporting.

I'm not a vegetarian (though I'm making slow steps to reducing my meat intake), but its this attitude that continues the secrecy/ignorance that is animal farming.

People know the conditions aren't great, but they're 50 times worse than they think. Its just easier to not think about it at all.

Was easier not to think of all kinds of social justice movements too, when they don't affect us directly.

Animal rights is the next social justice movement. Its just going to take a while for attitudes to change. And by that I mean farming practices, I don't mean everyone going vegetarian.

 

[Burgey]

Animal rights isn't suffregacy or the Civil Rights movement.

We're omnivores.

Sorry, but if animals are being treated poorly, then it's sad and should be stopped. But really, just because some animals are treated poorly is no more reason to stop eating meat than the poor treatment of third world workers by Nike means I shouldn't buy another brand of running shoes.

 

[Goughy]

I love meat, I eat lots of it and enjoy it. I dont really understand vegetarians (men especially) but, like surfing and homosexuality, I appreciate that just because I dont 'get' it doesnt mean there is anything wrong with it. Each to their own.

I think it is healthier to eat meat but then Im no expert.

On a related note, I was interested to watch yesterday that Roman gladiators were virtually completely vegetarian and ate far less meat than the average Roman citizen. A finding that suprized the experts as they were expecting a high protein, training diet.

 

[Jono]

Animal rights isn't suffregacy or the Civil Rights movement.

We're omnivores.

Sorry, but if animals are being treated poorly, then it's sad and should be stopped. But really, just because some animals are treated poorly is no more reason to stop eating meat than the poor treatment of third world workers by Nike means I shouldn't buy another brand of running shoes.

I assume you mean it doesn't mean "should" buy another brand of Nike shoes right?

Would you support Nike if they only hired white people, and were openly discriminatory?

As I said, its an attitude thing. There might be people who didn't care whether blacks could sit at the front of the bus. Those that did, were in everyone else's faces, and protesting. Its the same thing, just on a different scale of seriousness (which again, is an attitude, not a fact).

 

[Top_Cat]

Animal rights is the next social justice movement. Its just going to take a while for attitudes to change. And by that I mean farming practices, I don't mean everyone going vegetarian.

Strongly suspect economics rather than awareness will change farming practices eventually. Don't buy that people give enough of a crap yet nor will they in the foreseeable future to effect any serious change in farming practices.

 

[Matt79]

Sorry Jeevan, I just find sanctimony amusing, and if a small dig produces some, I'm libel to keep digging. I don't really care what people choose to eat, but just as I'll refrain from lecturing you on what I think you should do at your dining table or bedroom, or whatever, please feel free not to talk down to others who don't share your views.

That said, I love meat, and while I want to have a healthy diet, will never stop eating it.

 

[Top_Cat]

Go find your bogeymen some other place, me - I'm just trying to keep the planet in good enough shape for my kids. Hope you do not have a problem with that.

Haha, you'd fit right in here.

passive-aggressive (and just plain aggressive) notes ? no, your mother doesn’t work here

 

[Matt79]

lol, this one is fantastic:

 

[BoyBrumby]

Interesting (kinda) thread. But Cricket Chat? Not so much.

 

[Burgey]

I assume you mean it doesn't mean "should" buy another brand of Nike shoes right?

Would you support Nike if they only hired white people, and were openly discriminatory?

As I said, its an attitude thing. There might be people who didn't care whether blacks could sit at the front of the bus. Those that did, were in everyone else's faces, and protesting. Its the same thing, just on a different scale of seriousness (which again, is an attitude, not a fact).

Sorry, I meant a brand of shoes other than Nike.

 

[jeevan]

Haha, you'd fit right in here.

passive-aggressive (and just plain aggressive) notes ? no, your mother doesn’t work here

If you have a point about something, would love to hear it.

If you want to deal in stereotyping and random non sequitirs (that previous rant of yours was about really weird stuff, eating faeces!!), good day to you.

 

[Top_Cat]

If you have a point about something, would love to hear it.

If you want to deal in stereotyping and random non sequitirs (that previous rant of yours was about really weird stuff, eating faeces!!), good day to you.

Err, sorta made my point with the whole Vit B12 thing.

Anyway, as BoyBrumby said, this is kinda OT so I'm out for now.

 

[jeevan]

Err, sorta made my point with the whole Vit B12 thing.

Anyway, as BoyBrumby said, this is kinda OT so I'm out for now.

I fail too see what significant point you might have made there.

To recap, this discussion (to me at least) was mostly about vegeterians being able to sustain a healthy diet and there being significant environmental footprint from too much meat consumption. A secondary point about B12 was brought up, Where it was pointed out that _all_ B12 is made by bacteria - whether accidentally contaminated or naturally occurring or intentionally cultured.

You presumed that either all vegeterians, or just me , would have to be non-cooked food eating vegans (when perhaps the vast majority of non-meat eaters are lacto-vegeterians or even ovo-lacto-vegeterians, certainly can speak for the Indian vegeterian diet) and proceeded to demolish a hypothesis that no one made on this thread.

Then you declare victory of some sort. I guess there might have been a point in Don Quixote tilting at them windmills too.

Now that this discussion has concluded, hope to not run into you again.
Edit: After a long while, had occasion to add to my ignore list. This thread looks so much better now.

 

[Matt79]

Excellent. Making friends all over today.

 

[GIMH]

I love meat, I eat lots of it and enjoy it. I dont really understand vegetarians (men especially) but, like surfing and homosexuality, I appreciate that just because I dont 'get' it doesnt mean there is anything wrong with it. Each to their own.

I think it is healthier to eat meat but then Im no expert.

On a related note, I was interested to watch yesterday that Roman gladiators were virtually completely vegetarian and ate far less meat than the average Roman citizen. A finding that suprized the experts as they were expecting a high protein, training diet.

I love the way you post these things so casually Goughy

Why do you find it stranger that men be veggie than women out of interest?

I reckon I'd rather give up beer than meat, I'd rather give up *** than meat, I'd rather give up breathing I reckon.

 

[Matt79]

Think you've answered your own question there GIMH.

This thread should def be moved to Cricket Humour, or OT at best btw.

 

[Burgey]

About to have an Oporto Bondi burger.
No one has a problem with that do they?

 

[Smudge]

About to have an Oporto Bondi burger.
No one has a problem with that do they?

Depends. Did you give any to Greg Chappell?

 

[Matt79]

About to have an Oporto Bondi burger.
No one has a problem with that do they?

Would like to see you bacon up that chicken tbh.