WI all time XI vs Aus all time XI

[shivfan]

Both sides look extremely impressive....

Of course, this is all hypothetical. They're both excellent teams.

 

[stephen]

AT AU XI

Morris
Barnes
Bradman
Border
G. Chappell
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Davidson
Warne
Lillee

AT WI XI

Hunte
Greenidge
Headley
V. Richards
Sobers
Weekes
Dujon
Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding/ Gibbs (Depending on pitches)

:O No McGrath or Lara

 

[stephen]

I have gone for an alternative approach to selecting the sides. I have selected a statistics based team based on Australia v West Indies contests.

Player must have played in more than 10 test matches. Sorted by average, the two best openers, four best middle order bats, best wicketkeeper, and four best bowlers. Very crude selection method, but has resulted in two undisputably worthy teams.


Australia

B Lawry (1035 runs @ 69)
M Hayden (1237 @ 51.54)
R Ponting (1695 @ 62.77)
I Chappell (1545 @ 57.22)
G Chappell (1400 @ 56.00)
K Miller (801 @ 53.40) (40 wickets @ 25.97)
A Gilchrist (575 @ 47.91)
B Lee (64 @ wickets 23)
R Lindwall (41 @ 27.34)
J Gillespie (50 @ 21.12)
G McGrath (110 @ 19.38)

Note:
1. Keith Miller made it both as a batsman and bowler alone.
2. Alan Border made it as a bowler, not included for team balance.


West Indies

D Haynes (2233 runs @ 42.13)
C Hunte (927 @ 48.78)
B Lara (2815 @ 52.12)
C Lloyd (2211 @ 50.25)
R Richardson (2175 @ 49.43)
H Gomes (1122 @ 56.11)
P Dujon (1176 @ 36.75)
I Bishop (43 wickets @ 23.02)
M Marshall (87 @ 22.51)
J Garner ( 89 @ 20.89)
C Ambrose (128 @ 21.23)

Interesting. The thing that surprises me is that Warne wasn't included.

Also, lol @ Miller who played them as undisputed minnows.

 

[stephen]

I would love this Aussie lineup:
Hayden Ponsford Bradman Ponting Chappell Miller Gilchrist Warne O'Reilly Lillee McGrath

The second opener slot can be from any one of half a dozen different Aussie openers. Other than Hayden none really stand out greatly.

Other than that your batting lineup looks very similar to mine. Hard to play Aussie bats in their correct position though as most of the time Aus bats their best batsman at 3.

It's hard to argue against your lineup there. On a seaming wicket you may want to lose O'Reilly for another quick, though the 3 quicks there should do the business.

 

[The Sean]

Also, lol @ Miller who played them as undisputed minnows.

You know he played them in the 50s, not the 30s, right?

 

[Slifer]

West Indies were not minnows as theyd beaten England famously in 1950 by then but their bowling attack was no patch on those possessed by England and Australia of the time.

 

[JBH001]

Hmm, interesting. Without much thought, I would consider this as a possible XI.

Aus:

Trumper
Morris
Bradman
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

(I dont include Miller because I consider him over-rated)

WI:

Greenidge
Haynes
Lara
Headley
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Roberts
Ambrose
Gibbs

That would be a match up conducive to continual salivation.

Really difficult. Close victory to WI, maybe, on points. Probably need to think about it a little more though.

 

[steve132]

I'm sure that this topic has been done before, but what would a WIndies all time XI look like, and what would an Aus all time XI look like, and who would win?

WI:

Greenidge
Haynes
Headley
Lara
Richards (c)
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Garner
Holding
Ambrose

12th Lance Gibbs

Aus:

Hayden
Trumper
Bradman
G Chappell
Miller (c)
Ponting
Gilchrist
Warne
Davidson
Lillee
McGrath

12th Waugh

What do you all think?

I like both your teams, but I would be inclined to make some minor adjustments. First, replace Lara with Worrell. He was not as great a batsman as BCL, but he was the best captain ever produced by West Indies. I would also play Gibbs in place of Garner - he would provide some much needed variety to the attack, and could be a match winner on a pitch that takes spin.

In an all-time Australian XI Miller should bat below Ponting and Gilchrist. I would also replace Davidson with O'Reilly, since Lillee, McGrath and Miller already form a terrifying pace combination.

All of these proposed changes are debatable. That is inevitable, given the quality of talent available on both sides.

 

[steve132]

Hmm, interesting. Without much thought, I would consider this as a possible XI.

Aus:

Trumper
Morris
Bradman
Chappell
Border
Waugh
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

(I dont include Miller because I consider him over-rated)

WI:

Greenidge
Haynes
Lara
Headley
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Roberts
Ambrose
Gibbs

That would be a match up conducive to continual salivation.

Really difficult. Close victory to WI, maybe, on points. Probably need to think about it a little more though.

JBH:

Two questions on your Australian XI:

1. Why Border and Waugh ahead of Ponting?

2. Why do you consider Miller to be overrated?

 

[Richard]

I guess I'd pick something like:
WI:
Hunte
Fredericks \ Greenidge
Headley
Sobers (c)
Lara
Richards
Dujon (w)
Marshall
Holding
Ambrose
Garner

Aus:
Morris
Woodfull\Lawry\Ponsford\Barnes (Woodfull or Lawry (c))
Bradman
G Chappell
Border
S Waugh
Gilchrist (w)
Miller
Lindwall
Lillee
McGrath

And if anyone seriously suggests to me that because Allan Border caused problems to Gus Logie, Carl Hooper, some tailenders and a Jeff Dujon and Viv Richards who were by that time having problems with all bowlers that West Indian batsmen were all weak against spin, they'll get a "well no they weren't". Every single one of that WI batting line-up was utterly superb against spin, and I'd back all four of those Australian seamers to do better than Shane Warne would. I might, just, consider him ahead of Lillee or Lindwall on a rank turner.

As for who'd win, well, it'd just be a question of who played best on the day. Either of those line-ups is quite capable of ousting the other.

 

[Matt79]

Dismayed no one has even suggested Neil Harvey in discussing the Aussie middle order. Oh yeah, his career avg of 49 < 50 = no good.

You would definitely want Miller in. In an all time team, where he would not have to be over bowled due to the presence of other great bowlers, his batting would shine and he could bowl in short shock spells. Like most allrounders, when he had to bowl a lot his batting suffered.
Having Bradman and Gilly more than makes up for the difference between Miller and Sobers in batting.

G. Chappell I'd have ahead of Lara in this contest given his success against the best pace line ups ever assembled in WSC.

Aus
Simpson
Morris
Bradman
G. Chappell
Border
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath
With Waugh, Ponting, Harvey and Lindwall all very unlucky.

WI
Fredricks
Greenidge
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose
With the 3 Ws very unlucky, along with Roberts, and Gibbs for spinning tracks maybe.

For me it would be a very evenly poised contest, with Aussies having an advantage when conditions helped Warne and Bradman shaping as the difference.

I'd want someone like Simpson in ahead of Hayden - in general I'd have Hayden ahead, but against that bowling line up... Not sold on the Aussie openers give the many nearly equal choices. Maybe even consider having Harvey try his hand.

 

[JBH001]

JBH:

Two questions on your Australian XI:

1. Why Border and Waugh ahead of Ponting?

2. Why do you consider Miller to be overrated?

Mainly due to batting position, something I tend to lay some store by. I think Ponting the third best batsmen produced by Australia (after Bradman and G Chappell) but I do see him as a no. 3. That spot is taken by Bradman. Border and Waugh spent most of their careers (and seemed to have achieved most success) batting lower down the order, so I place them in the positions where they have done the most batting (despite Ponting being the better bat - albeit not by much). Border and Waugh also contribute to the team in terms of their bowling, which again leads to my leaving Ponting out of the side.

As to Miller, I dont think he was as good a batsman as his figures suggest. Neither do I think he really performed against the best of his time, and neither do I think he was all that good under pressure (except for that hundred at Lords iirc) although I must admit these things are difficult to guage from poring over old score sheets. I think his bowling was certainly very good, but the fact that he was selected as a batsman (at 5) and seems to have done comparatively little bowling (in terms of volume) due to his back issues, means that I cant select him as part of a 4 man bowling attack because I dont know if he would be upto the workload. The only way I can see him in my Australian side is if Gilly batted at 6, and I played 5 bowlers with Miller slotting in at number 7. But I would rather have the extra batter, 3 really good quicks, and arguably the best spinner of all time, with Waugh (and to a lesser extent Border) as back up bowlers.

 

[stephen]

Dismayed no one has even suggested Neil Harvey in discussing the Aussie middle order. Oh yeah, his career avg of 49 < 50 = no good.

You would definitely want Miller in. In an all time team, where he would not have to be over bowled due to the presence of other great bowlers, his batting would shine and he could bowl in short shock spells. Like most allrounders, when he had to bowl a lot his batting suffered.
Having Bradman and Gilly more than makes up for the difference between Miller and Sobers in batting.

G. Chappell I'd have ahead of Lara in this contest given his success against the best pace line ups ever assembled in WSC.

Aus
Simpson
Morris
Bradman
G. Chappell
Border
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath
With Waugh, Ponting, Harvey and Lindwall all very unlucky.

WI
Fredricks
Greenidge
Headley
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose
With the 3 Ws very unlucky, along with Roberts, and Gibbs for spinning tracks maybe.

For me it would be a very evenly poised contest, with Aussies having an advantage when conditions helped Warne and Bradman shaping as the difference.

I'd want someone like Simpson in ahead of Hayden - in general I'd have Hayden ahead, but against that bowling line up... Not sold on the Aussie openers give the many nearly equal choices. Maybe even consider having Harvey try his hand.

I think everyone realised that with the Australian batsmen, leaving two of Waugh, Ponting, Border, Miller or Chappell out meant that there was certainly no room for Harvey (who I'd put as the next best middle order bat).

I think the Australian lineup is certainly more contentious than the West Indies lineup. I think the 3Ws are very unlucky as is Roberts and Gibbs, but it's more a case of everyone going "gee they're unlucky" and not "no, they should be in the side over another player".

The WIndies and Australia have had awsome amounts of great players over the years, and given we're leaving out players like Lindwall and Grimmett.

 

[Burgey]

Is Dujon a walk-up start for the Windies keeping role? I'd have though Walcott would run him very close, if not better him.

 

[roseboy64]

There was a sim done a while back. Currently searching for it.

 

[sammy2]

I don't think there is a batting line up capable of surviving against 3 bowlers who avg 20 and a fastman who can swing the ball and master any pitch and take wickets. Bradman has zero experience against world class bowlers like marshall and ambrose. And I just don't think the aussie bowlers has a chance of dominating the WI batting line up, there is something interesting about the aussie line up. Most of the players played during a period way earlier or later than when WI made their mark, the greats in AUS line up are mostly unproven or they weren't the best of their time. Viv, Lara, Headley, Sobers were all the best players during their time, proved themselve against good bowling attacks. Comparing legends with good players. There is no sure reason why any of the aussie batting line up could make a century against the WI bowling attack. There is a reason why a weak WI batting line up could make 417 to beat one of the strongest and most experienced Aus bowling attack.

 

[Slifer]

I personally would give Australia the edge with the Bradman and Gilchrist factor, however if i were picking a West Indies team to face Australia Id probably drop Garner for Roberts so that Roberts could introduce them to some nastiness. Bodyline Bradman (seriously i would use this tactic) and take out the rest.

 

[Burgey]

I don't think there is a batting line up capable of surviving against 3 bowlers who avg 20 and a fastman who can swing the ball and master any pitch and take wickets. Bradman has zero experience against world class bowlers like marshall and ambrose. And I just don't think the aussie bowlers has a chance of dominating the WI batting line up, there is something interesting about the aussie line up. Most of the players played during a period way earlier or later than when WI made their mark, the greats in AUS line up are mostly unproven or they weren't the best of their time. Viv, Lara, Headley, Sobers were all the best players during their time, proved themselve against good bowling attacks. Comparing legends with good players. There is no sure reason why any of the aussie batting line up could make a century against the WI bowling attack. There is a reason why a weak WI batting line up could make 417 to beat one of the strongest and most experienced Aus bowling attack.

Check out the averages of the proposed bowlers from both sides. I'll think you'll find they're more than handy.


And they don't have experience bowling to him, either....


You do realise the side which is proposed to represent Australia isn't the establishment team from the WSC era, don't you?

 

[Slifer]

I think the point Sammy is trying to make (valid one) is that Players like Miller, Simpson, Bradman, Morris, and Gilchrist faced WI teams when their bowling were far from being decent. Only Chappell played for ne length against the great WI attacks and even he got owned (excluding his WSC exploits of course). Players like Lara, Richards, Headley, Greenidge, Fredricks faced bowlers like: Mcgrath, Gillespie, Warne, Grimmett, Thompson, Lillee etc and had some level of success against them.

 

[subshakerz]

I find it funny that Warne is considered the trump card given his record against a pretty mediocre West Indies side since the 90s.