WI all time XI vs Aus all time XI

[The Sean]

There is no sure reason why any of the aussie batting line up could make a century against the WI bowling attack.

Amid such a raging torrent it was difficult to pick out the single craziest statement but I've gone with this one.

Even leaving aside Bradman for a moment, I'd advise you to have a look at Greg Chappell's WSC series in the Caribbean in 1979, when he hit three centuries against one of the most fearsome fast bowling attacks ever assembled and scored double the number of runs of any other batsman on either side.

 

[Richard]

Dismayed no one has even suggested Neil Harvey in discussing the Aussie middle order.

I'm frankly astonished that anyone is considering a WI side without Conrad Hunte. Picking Greenidge ahead of him is to some extent fair enough; Fredericks, just. Haynes? No way. Class batsman, but Hunte was quite a bit better.

 

[sanga1337]

Hayden
Langer
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Gilchrist
Miller
Warne
Lillee
O'reilly
McGrath

Langer being extremely underated IMO. Capable of playing the slow, gritty innings in difficult conditions as well as scoring quickly when required later on in his career. Also a really tough character.Gilchrist should also be batting above Miller as he is a far superior batsman to him. The only reason I can think of not to bat him above Miller is because it might be too much pressure to ask him to keep as well as bat in the top 6. Worth trying him there in the beginning though.

Greenidge
Hunte
Headly
Lara
Richards
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

Could go with Gibbs I guess if the pitch is a turner, otherwise should be the 4 pronged pace attack with Sobers and occasionally Richards providing the spin support.

 

[Richard]

When was Headley ever the best in the world?

That's hardly fair though, is it - at any time other than as a Bradman contemporary he would have been.

 

[Richard]

Given the Windies efforts against spin on turning wickets, why wouldn't have someone in there who could turn it on any wicket.

All of the batsmen who'd play in an all-time West Indies XI were masters of playing the turning ball.

As I say - it makes no sense whatsoever to suggest all West Indian batsmen were the same. Some of West Indies' moderate-quality batsmen may have struggled against spin (as they did against seam) but the best of the best emphatically did not.

 

[The Sean]

I'm frankly astonished that anyone is considering a WI side without Conrad Hunte. Picking Greenidge ahead of him is to some extent fair enough; Fredericks, just. Haynes? No way. Class batsman, but Hunte was quite a bit better.

Agreed - would certainly have him as one of the top two with Greenidge. Better than both Fredericks and Haynes in my opinion.

I find selecting a WI all time side probably the hardest of all, because of the three Ws factor - three of the very best the game has ever produced, and yet unless I pick them "out of position" as it were (Worrell as an opener, Walcott behind the stumps) I can't actually fit any of them into the team! I consider Weekes to be the greatest of the three, but even he can't get a place in a middle-order of Headley-Richards-Lara-Sobers.

 

[The Sean]

That's hardly fair though, is it - at any time other than as a Bradman contemporary he would have been.

True, but pasag's question was in response to sammy2 claiming that Headley was the best of his time.

 

[Richard]

Is Dujon a walk-up start for the Windies keeping role? I'd have though Walcott would run him very close, if not better him.

Maybe if he'd had a long career as wicketkeeper he would've done. But, well, as aussie says, Walcott was only ever a stopgap wicketkeeper. He wasn't an inept one, but when he kept wicket his batting was reduced from superlative to merely very good.

 

[Richard]

Agreed - would certainly have him as one of the top two with Greenidge. Better than both Fredericks and Haynes in my opinion.

I find selecting a WI all time side probably the hardest of all, because of the three Ws factor - three of the very best the game has ever produced, and yet unless I pick them "out of position" as it were (Worrell as an opener, Walcott behind the stumps) I can't actually fit any of them into the team! I consider Weekes to be the greatest of the three, but even he can't get a place in a middle-order of Headley-Richards-Lara-Sobers.

Yup, have thought same many times. I guess Weekes could have some case to play aheaad of either of Lara or Richards, but I've come around to thinking both were actually superior to him.

Worrell for his captaincy too is a fair contender, but I just can't leave-out any of Headley (greatest WI batsman IMO), Sobers (second-greatest and obviously a bowler as well), Lara (just can't do it, I loved him too much) or Richards (enforcer, which you can afford with such a strong three alongside him).

And you know me - I have openers opening the batting. Which means Hunte and one of Fredericks or Greenidge.

 

[Richard]

True, but pasag's question was in response to sammy2 claiming that Headley was the best of his time.

Check your wall. (That is, your "public message" thingy)

 

[The Sean]

Check your wall. (That is, your "public message" thingy)

Ha ha I've never had a message on my wall before - thanks!

 

[Matt79]

Bodyline Bradman (seriously i would use this tactic) and take out the rest.

Besides the objections already raised, might be a bit hard with the modern restrictions on numbers of bouncers...

 

[subshakerz]

This is such a overplayed & inaccurate argument, its so boring now. I suggest sir you check back Warne's record vs WI in 90 CLOSELY, paying key evidence to debut, form & injury woes...

He played 8 tests against them when fully fit, and only once went roughshod over the West Indies

 

[stephen]

He played 8 tests against them when fully fit, and only once went roughshod over the West Indies

Surely though that has more to do with the pitches he played upon than anything else. If these were the teams I imagine Australia would try and prepare turners and featherbeds given their stronger spin bowling options.

 

[Slifer]

if that's your big trump card he still averaged 50 whilst the rest were well below. Australia could simply return fire and restrict the WI scoring if underhand tactics are the goal. Unless you are about to present us with evidence of how others prospered against the tactic....?

Dont think they would be as effective esp given the bowlers Australia have (Lillee excepted) and the fact that West Indies have a handful of Lefties in their line-up. And FTR i wouldnt seriously use that tactic havent u ever heard of thinking outside of the box?? Jeezzz!!

 

[Slifer]

Surely though that has more to do with the pitches he played upon than anything else. If these were the teams I imagine Australia would try and prepare turners and featherbeds given their stronger spin bowling options.

Yes but dont u think that would diminish the effectiveness of the likes of Lillee and Davidson (and Miller). Obviously Mcgrath could bowl on ne thing so pitch doesnt really matter.

 

[Richard]

Besides the objections already raised, might be a bit hard with the modern restrictions on numbers of bouncers...

Not to mention, obviously, the restrictions on the leg-side-behind-square cordon.

And of course most significantly of all, the fact that pitches as dangerously uneven as the like of Adelaide 1932/33 are a thing of the long, long distant past.

Make no mistake - put any batsman, ever into the shoes of anyone in that 1932/33 series, they'd struggle, badly. Those who think it was as simple as bowling short and quick just don't have a clue, I'm afraid. It was bowling short, very quick, ball after ball, to a packed cordon of leg-side fielders, on often horribly uneven decks, with precious little protective equipment.

Bodyline has never nor never will be again remotely re-create-able. And if it were, it'd bring the game to a standstill.

 

[Richard]

Surely though that has more to do with the pitches he played upon than anything else.

The whole point of Warne was that he could bowl well on anything. The likes of Brian Lara were of times just so good they could often counter whatever he threw at them. Warne played against West Indies at the height of his powers in 1995, 1996/97 and 2005/06 (the series' in 1992/93 and 1999 are indeed irrelevant as he failed against everyone he faced in that time) and still could not perform with any particular outstandingness. And he was countered easily not just by Lara, but also the likes of Carl Hooper, Jimmy Adams, Keith Arthurton, Junior Murray, Stuart Williams, a way-past-his-best Richie Richardson, Sherwin Campbell, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Robert Samuels and Courtney Browne. The notion that he'd cause havoc amongst batsmen many light-years superior to that lot (Hunte, Fredericks, Greenidge, Headley, Sobers, Richards, Dujon, Weekes, Walcott, whoever you want to pick) is nothing short of ridiculous.

It's beyond ridiculous, meanwhile, that this myth of every single West Indian batsman in history having a weakness against spin is perpetuated amongst Australians based, pretty much exclusively, on two meaningless dead Tests at The SCG in the 1980s.

 

[Noble One]

Incredible that 76 years on from bodyline, it is still the most legendary and discussed tactic.

Keith Miller and Ray Lindwall where blasted in 1951 for a barrage of short deliveries at the West Indians, accused of bodyline tactics. Despite only having two short leg fieldsmen and a long leg for the hook.

Impossible to re-create. Public sentiment is too strong against the tactic.

 

[Slifer]

Yeah they did, to contain a certain Everton Weekes which is y his record in Australia was so poor. Thats y in retrospect, i used to think he was just a minnow bully but then i got the full story (not to mention his injuries away in England) I understand y he struggled in these 2 countries as much as he did:

West Indies in Australia and New Zealand 1951/52Named as a member of the West Indian teamWest Indian cricket team in Australia in 1951-52
The West Indies cricket team toured Australia in the 1951-52 season and played five Test cricket against Australia national cricket team. The series was billed as the "World Championship of cricket", with both teams having beaten English cricket team in the previous 18 months....
to tour Australia in 1951/52, Weekes was troubled by a range of injuries throughout the tour, including a ongoing thigh injury and a badly bruised right thumb when a door slammed shut on it while he was helping an injured Walcott out of his room, subsequently leaving his performances below expectations.

Additionally, as the leading West Indian batsman, Weekes was targeted by the Australian fast bowlers, in particular Ray LindwallRay Lindwall
Raymond Russell Lindwall MBE was a cricketer who represented Australia national cricket team in 61 Test cricket from 1946 to 1960. A right-arm fast bowling of express pace, Lindwall was widely regarded as the greatest pace bowler of his era and one of the finest of all time....
, subjecting him to BodylineBodyline
Bodyline, also known as fast leg theory, was a cricketing tactic devised by the English cricket team for their 1932?33 The Ashes tour of Australia, specifically to combat the extraordinary batting skill of Australia's Don Bradman....
-like tactics of sustained short pitched bowling. Reviewing the series, the Sydney Morning Herald claimed that the Australian tactics to contain Weekes may have been just within the laws of cricket but infringed on the spirit of the game. Leading cricket commentator Alan McGilvrayAlan McGilvray
Alan David McGilvray Order of Australia Order of the British Empire, was a former cricketer who played several first-class seasons for New South Wales in the mid-1930s before becoming the doyen of cricket commentators in Australia....
later wrote "I remain convinced to this day the bumpers hurled at Weekes had a definite influence on charging up West Indian competitiveness in future series."