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best new ball pair ?

bagapath

International Captain
can someone post, or at least tell me where to find, a chart of top ten opening bowling pairs in terms of bowling averages with at least 100 wickets together (with each taking more than 40 wickets)? and another chart of top ten opening bowling pairs ordered in terms of wickets taken...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Did I just read that pollock and donald was better than walsh and ambrose... LOL LOL
Yes. They were. Ambrose and Walsh, for all their excellence, were essentially one-dimensional - all they did was move the ball off the surface, as well as sometimes bang it in halfway down repeatedly and bore everyone senseless (including often boring the batsmen into making a mistake). Donald and Pollock had pretty much every basis covered - they swung it, seamed it, cut it, bowled short, bowled full - the 'ole kaboodle.

I realise that to some people the fact that one is West Indian and the other is not means no amount of other material is of the slightest relevance, though, so there's no point wasting any more time.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I saw the '98 series, Donald was awesome but Donald post-1999 was only good at home with pitch assistance or against shoddy batting line-ups. Shaun Pollock was at peak 1998 onwards, though he was quality from ball 1. It helped his first 10 tests were at home with a fast bouncy wicket.

Pollock unfortunately had to change his role in the SA team and became more of a "line and length" bowler as opposed to the speedier bowler he was to start with.
I don't know where this myth comes from. Pollock was always a superlative line-and-length merchant who was almost impossible to score freely from, right (as you say) from ball one. Yes, he was also 90 mph + initially, but this lasted no more than a year or two - Pollock was only ever fast-medium after his ankle injury in 1997.

Pollock's plateau (it was far more than a two\three-game peak) was 1995/96-2001. Donald's was 1992-2001. Donald should have retired after that last series in West Indies; Pollock was never as effective from 2001/02 onwards. That wasn't because he had to change his role - it was just because he declined and pitches flattened-out, simualtaneously.

I won't argue that Donald in 1999/2000 and 2000/01 was quite the bowler he had been previously, because he wasn't (he was still the best around in the 1999 World Cup mind). But he was still eminently Test-class and nothing like as terribly awful as he was in 2001/02. It was so, so sad to see him in that last season, because he had once been so superlative - one of the best ever - and was eventually reduced to that.
But, in any case, a 4-year period doesn't constitute being a deadly duo IMO.
:blink: 4 years is plenty long enough for a reasonable-length plateau period, IMO.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
I don't think you can have a single answer for best new ball pair. It would be different based on the pitch conditions, attitude of batsman (more aggressive than they used to be), bowling rules (do you have to get through 90 overs?), etc. It may even be something like the percentage of left-handers around.
 

sammy2

Banned
Yes. They were. Ambrose and Walsh, for all their excellence, were essentially one-dimensional - all they did was move the ball off the surface, as well as sometimes bang it in halfway down repeatedly and bore everyone senseless (including often boring the batsmen into making a mistake). Donald and Pollock had pretty much every basis covered - they swung it, seamed it, cut it, bowled short, bowled full - the 'ole kaboodle.

I realise that to some people the fact that one is West Indian and the other is not means no amount of other material is of the slightest relevance, though, so there's no point wasting any more time.
And the end of the day, during the period of which both duo were playing everyone knew walsh and ambrose were better and had way more respect than donald and pollock.

There is a reason why walsh and ambrose are considered legends of fast bowling, and to see you box them in is funny. I can't believe you sometimes, crazy.
 
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Postmanpat

Cricket Spectator
And the end of the day, during the period of which both duo were playing everyone knew walsh and ambrose were better and had way more respect than donald and pollock.

There is a reason why walsh and ambrose are considered legends of fast bowling, and to see you box them in is funny. I can't believe you sometimes, crazy.
Then why do Donald/Pollock have a better record than Walsh/Ambrose?

Did you just ignore Zaremba's post or something?

In Tests played together:

Pollock and Donald: 397 wickets @ 21.84
Wash and Ambrose: 762 wickets @ 22.67

You could argue that either was better, they had very similar records, but it's not as if Walsh/Ambrose blew them out of the water like you're suggesting. Also, most people I've talked to recognise Donald and Pollock as greats as well.
 

sammy2

Banned
Then why do Donald/Pollock have a better record than Walsh/Ambrose?

Did you just ignore Zaremba's post or something?

In Tests played together:

Pollock and Donald: 397 wickets @ 21.84
Wash and Ambrose: 762 wickets @ 22.67

You could argue that either was better, they had very similar records, but it's not as if Walsh/Ambrose blew them out of the water like you're suggesting. Also, most people I've talked to recognise Donald and Pollock as greats as well.
Thats not a new ball record, thats their partnership record.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Thats not a new ball record, thats their partnership record.
Well you've asked for stats. What stats exactly are you after? The records of bowlers when the ball is less than 10 overs old? If that's what you want, you can compile the stats for yourself, son. I'm sure they'll prove whatever it is that you want them to prove (ie that your favourite WI players are the best in the world ever).
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
As I said earlier, the Waqar/Wasim and Ambrose/Walsh partnerships went for double the time span the Donald/Pollock partnership did and they still dominated.

I think it's only South Africans or Donald fanboys who argue against W/W and A/W being lesser partnerships.

I'm sure a poll of every batsmen who faced all 6 bowlers would put Donald and Pollock as the 2 least deadly (although they were quality for sure) home and away.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
Ok, maybe Donald above Walsh with Pollock being bottom of the list.

But certainly Ambrose, Waqar and Wasim above him around the world- not just on home soil with extreme assistance.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Your comments about McGrath (ie people forget how quick he was when he was younger) apply with equal force to Pollock. He was a genuine quick bowler in the first part of his career, and obtained lavish sideways movement and bounce while remaining very accurate. I thought he was an outstanding and lethal fast bowler and complemented Donald beautifully.

Anyhow if I were to rank those 6 bowlers I'd put them in something like the following order:

Ambrose
Wasim
Waqar
Donald
Pollock
Walsh

Waqar, at his blistering peak, was the best of the lot.
In terms of sustained brilliance, though, it was Ambrose.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Unquestionably world class, but maybe not one of the greatest pairs of new-ball bowlers as so much of their damage was done with the old ball?
I agree with that. Not sure how more refined stats can be unearthed.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And the end of the day, during the period of which both duo were playing everyone knew walsh and ambrose were better and had way more respect than donald and pollock.

There is a reason why walsh and ambrose are considered legends of fast bowling, and to see you box them in is funny. I can't believe you sometimes, crazy.
"Box them in"? Let's leave your inability to read and worry about your inability to make a remotely coherant point.

Ambrose and Walsh and Donald and Pollock were both among the most feared and respected bowling duos in history. That's all there really is to it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I agree with that. Not sure how more refined stats can be unearthed.
They can't. Not without ridiculous amounts of painstaking work. In any case, as you mention, just how do you define "new-ball bowler"? Opening spell? When the ball was less than 10 overs old? When it was less than 30? There's any number of definitions that could be applied.

At the end of the day no stats package will ever be able to be compiled on use of the new ball.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm sure a poll of every batsmen who faced all 6 bowlers would put Donald and Pollock as the 2 least deadly (although they were quality for sure) home and away.
An accurate ranking for me would be something like:
Waqar Younis circa 1990/91-1994/95
Donald
Ambrose
Pollock circa 1995/96-2001
Wasim Akram
Walsh
Waqar Younis circa 1995/96-2000
Pollock circa 2001/02-2007/08

Pollock and Waqar both had two totally distinct periods and to pretend they were the same thing all career, as Wasim, Donald, Ambrose and Walsh were much closer to being, would be pure folly. Pollock and Waqar must be assessed in two parts.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
An accurate ranking for me would be something like:
Waqar Younis circa 1990/91-1994/95
Donald
Ambrose
Pollock circa 1995/96-2001
Wasim Akram
Walsh
Waqar Younis circa 1995/96-2000
Pollock circa 2001/02-2007/08

Pollock and Waqar both had two totally distinct periods and to pretend they were the same thing all career, as Wasim, Donald, Ambrose and Walsh were much closer to being, would be pure folly. Pollock and Waqar must be assessed in two parts.
You've split Waqar and Pollock into 2 categories but not Ambrose even though he lost a good 7+mph of pace and went form out blasting batsmen to being a much more clever bowler?

If you're being consistent, you should split him into 2 parts too.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I dont think u can really split Ambrose that way as IMO he was consistently excellent for the vast majority of his career, as evidenced by the fact that his average got lower and lower the more games he played. What fell off was his WPM ratio which was more a result of the general failures of the weak WI team he was a part of rather than his own ability. Oh and as for Richard i would never rank Donald ahead of Ambrose as much as a respect Donald as a fast bowler.
 

rivera213

U19 Vice-Captain
I dont think u can really split Ambrose that way as IMO he was consistently excellent for the vast majority of his career, as evidenced by the fact that his average got lower and lower the more games he played
No, you misunderstand. I assumed Richard meant the TYPE of bowler. Both Waqar (1996-2000) and Pollock continued to be quality in the years Richard mentioned even if they slightly changed as bowlers. Pollock of 2006 onwards wasn't great but he was still excellent 2000-2005 and he was bowling on some crappy batsmen-friendly wickets 2002 onwards.

Ambrose changed because of his drop in pace. He's 1 of my favourite bowlers ever. I didn't mean to imply he was a lesser bowler after he lost pace since that wasn't the case.

Walsh had some average years in a great career but generally remained the same bowler (his drop in pace wasn't as drastic as his partner in crime).
 
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