*Unofficial* England ODI team thread

[Pup Clarke]

Don't think you get my point, maybe Broad went for a few streaky shots for boundaries and was therefore unlucky, you have completely bypassed that option which you don't do when discussing relevant batting displays.

And no I can't remember.

 

[Uppercut]

Yes, but as a medium pacer when you're off line you're all the more susceptible to getting hit and against the likes of Chanderpaul and other great innovators it's a lot easier to throw out a lap sweep or a reverse sweep against you as Tendulkar done a couple times when Dimi was playing against India in 07. The Bracken thing is a bit messed up, Broad and Dimi are a lot more alike in terms of skill level at the death than Bracken and Dimi, therefore Dimi is more likely to achieve similar to what Broad has done in ODI level than Bracks...

Nah, Mascarenhas is pretty different from Broad for plenty of reasons. Firstly, he's a swing-bowler. Broad isn't. Secondly, he's a lot more experienced. The mentality issues Broad occasionally shows (just ask Yuvraj) aren't there with Dimi. Bowling at the death is a bit like a penalty shoot-out- it's 90% in the mind. Thirdly, he's actually more accurate than Broad, although not as quick. Dimi isn't medium pace though, he's about the same level as a fit Sidebottom in that department.

He's not an ideal death-bowler by any means, but he'll do the job. Ideally he'll bowl with the new ball, because that's when he has a real wicket-taking threat to go with his tight economy.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Dimi isn't medium pace though, he's about the same level as a fit Sidebottom in that department.

Not a chance, he's genuine meduim pace. Sidebottom at full fitness is about 10mph quicker.

 

[Uppercut]

All the same, I'd say Mascarenhas is wasted at the end of the innings. His great skill is bowling at the start and in the middle of the innings. It disappoints me to see him being asked (even if by himself) to be a death-bowler.

I've just said it about Flintoff and will say it again - you've got to think about how to make the most constructive use of Mascarenhas' talents. The one place that doesn't do that is the death.

Probably true for England, I'm happy that it's the right thing to do for Hampshire though. As the senior player, the captain and the most experienced bowler in a largely inexperienced lineup, Dimi bowling himself at the death is fair enough.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Mascheranhas rarely gets to late 70s from what I saw of him in NZ last year, and Sidebottom there was on occasions getting up to 90, or so the speedgun seemed to suggest.

 

[Uppercut]

Hum, i did not delete that post quickly enough. Really I'm not too bothered about discussing their speeds. It's not especially relevant.

 

[Pup Clarke]

O.....K....it's called discussion.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, i know. I'm just not too bothered about how fast he is because i don't think it matters enough in ODI bowling to be worth devoting much time to. Nothing to be stunned about

 

[Richard]

Mills value lies in taking wickets?

Yes.

You might want to re-evaluate that one.

No, I wouldn't. Since 2005/06, against ODI-standard sides, Mills has a ODI strike-rate of 31.4, offsetting a poor economy-rate of 4.78-an-over (that of course is due in some part to being forced to bowl at the death, a role to which he is not and never has been suited).

For comparison, Brett Lee's career strike-rate against ODI-standard sides is 28.3 and Mitchell Johnson's 33. Mills has been a very, very regular wicket-taker in recent years, and has by-and-large been a notable economy merchant at the start and in the middle of the innings as well.

 

[Richard]

Mascheranhas rarely gets to late 70s from what I saw of him in NZ last year, and Sidebottom there was on occasions getting up to 90, or so the speedgun seemed to suggest.

Mascarenhas is certainly more than medium-pace. He can easily bowl in the high-70s, and Sidebottom at best is mid-80s (only exceptionally rarely will he touch 90). The typical difference is perhaps 5mph.

 

[Richard]

Probably true for England, I'm happy that it's the right thing to do for Hampshire though. As the senior player, the captain and the most experienced bowler in a largely inexperienced lineup, Dimi bowling himself at the death is fair enough.

That might well mean he has a better ODI record than domestic-OD record.

That, clearly, is totally unacceptable. :insert stuck-up smiley:

(TBH, I think it's as true for Hants as it is for England. Dimi could easily give Hants 10-25-2\3 as many games as not if he bowled 10 overs straight through, I reckon. That's well worth a slightly lesser bowler at the death)

 

[Richard]

Don't think you get my point, maybe Broad went for a few streaky shots for boundaries and was therefore unlucky, you have completely bypassed that option which you don't do when discussing relevant batting displays.

And no I can't remember.

In which case, it might be a good idea to avoid berating me for not doing something I don't need to do. I certainly never, ever "bypass the option" of bowlers having bowled perfectly decently and been slogged around. It does happen.

However, it's not remarkably common. And I can think of precisely no occasion in Broad's career where it has TBH. Generally, when he's bowled well, he's got the figures - often very good ones indeed. And generally, when he's been clattered round the park, he's bowled badly.

 

[Pup Clarke]

In which case, it might be a good idea to avoid berating me for not doing something I don't need to do.

Eh? Berating?

It's called putting together a case for some inconsistency on your behalf.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Mascarenhas is certainly more than medium-pace. He can easily bowl in the high-70s

Again at international level that pretty much is medium pace, Masceranhas almost exclusively operates below that pace to experiment with cutters, slower balls etc.

 

[Richard]

Eh? Berating?

It's called putting together a case for some inconsistency on your behalf.

Generally that would be considered to be berating someone. And as I said, there isn't any inconsistency. I don't do inconsistency. I've already mentioned - if a bowler's figures don't accurately reflect how he's bowled (either in the form of not doing him justice or flattering him), I'll say so. I have, in fact, many times. I'm quite astounded you've not noticed.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Maybe some evidence for this but I really can't remember, 18 is far too old.

 

[Richard]

Again at international level that pretty much is medium pace, Masceranhas almost exclusively operates below that pace to experiment with cutters, slower balls etc.

Medium-pace is medium-pace. Pace is the same at all levels. At Devon League Third XI level, medium-pace is very sharp and fast-medium is pretty much unsightable. While slow-medium (pretty much my pace) is about standard.

Medium-pace is around the 70mph mark. Mascarenhas is most certainly a medium-fast merchant.

Mind, I do sometimes wish he'd experiment a bit less. Though he's nowhere near as guilty as someone like Ian Harvey in that respect. Generally, Dimi is pretty well-versed on the value of a length ball aimed at the top of off bowled at 77mph.

 

[Richard]

Maybe some evidence for this but I really can't remember, 18 is far too old.

Well deduct a few years from your birth-certificate then. Any fool really can do that.

 

[Furball]

Johnson, Mills and Lee are bowlers whose value lies in extreme wicket-taking rather than especially outstanding economy. They earn their coin as decent bowlers via that.

So why doesn't Broad?

Against ODI standard teams, Broad and Johnson's career ODI records to date are virtually identical.

Player  	          Span  	Mat  	Inns  	Overs  	Mdns  	Runs  	Wkts  	BBI  	Ave  	Econ 	SR  	4  	5
MG Johnson (Aus)  	2005-2009  	44  	44  	357.5  	24  	1774  	65  	5/26  	27.29  	4.95  	33.0  	2  	2
SCJ Broad (Eng) 	2006-2008 	41 	41 	336.5 	26 	1675 	60 	5/23 	27.91 	4.97 	33.6 	2 	1

 

[Prince EWS]

Sometimes I get the feeling that Richard would actually rather discuss something he's discussed 999 times before with members who haven't heard his opinion on them yet than actually discuss something he hasn't gone through yet.

Not that's it's wrong to rather that, as such; just strange.