***Official*** South Africa in England

[Richard]

Well I'll let you do the research on that if you can be bothered.

But you can consider Martin, Chapple and Austin who have, between them, taken 49 times more 5-fers for Lancashire than Fred.

Your argument that Fred has bowled in strong bowling line-ups for Lancs can't explain why, to take one striking and rather podgy example, Ian Austin has managed 6 times more 5-fers than him while operating as part of the same attack.

The fact is that Fred's bowling stats belie his reputation as one of the world's best fast bowlers.

Not sure if I can give any convincing explanation but I'll try:

1. Early in his career he wasn't used as a strike bowler (but cf Ian Austin and his 6 5-fers)

2. Perhaps his back-of-a-length style, while hard to score off, is relatively easy to defend.

3. Perhaps more recently opposition batsmen have tended to try to see him off before feasting on the richer pickings on offer from Anderson, Mahmood, et al?

4. He doesn't get much lateral movement. I know that you (Richard) think he does, but I disagree. I haven't seen him ever get much orthodox swing. And importantly such movement as he does get tends to be in to the right-hander rather than away.

I don't disagree with any of that. I've said before - Flintoff's lack of five-wicket hauls is remarkable, and nothing less. Certainly he could be better with the old bowling of conventional swing. He can do it though, and I've seen him do so several times.

HOWEVER, if he's getting 3-40 and 4-90 regularly (which in Tests between 2003/04 and 2006/07 he was) then this isn't the biggest deal in The World. Average > five-fors. 3-40 is a far more helpful performance for your team than 5-140. And it depends far more on the strength of the rest of your attack than anything else.

One minor thing though - there wasn't really all that much overlap in the careers of Flintoff and Austin. Certainly not in the time Flintoff was a serious bowler.

 

[Richard]

And the truth comes out

I've already replied to the post in question. There's nothing in those links Gelman provided that I'd said I hadn't said.

 

[zaremba]

One minor thing though - there wasn't really all that much overlap in the careers of Flintoff and Austin. Certainly not in the time Flintoff was a serious bowler.

You're not by any chance trying to have it both ways are you?...

Martin, Chapple, Austin, Cork, Anderson, Smith, Hogg, Muralitharan, Schofield, Yates, Keedy.

Just some of the bowlers he's bowled with at Lancs. I'd not want to bet against a few of his Lancs attacks being stronger than one or two of the Test ones of different times.

 

[Zinzan]

I've already replied to the post in question. There's nothing in those links Gelman provided that I'd said I hadn't said.

Rubbish ..Referring to Sidebottom you recently said "but I couldn't ever have called it a poor decision" when earlier you had said "I still don't like the selection of Sidebottom" which clearly implies you didn't think it was a good decision

So often those consumed with their own self importance are blinded

 

[Marius]

Any denizens of Leeds on the board? What's the weather like in that fair city today?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I hear that Martin McCague's made the team for England today.

 

[wpdavid]

According to cricinfo's headline, Collingwood's been dropped and Pattison's playing.
They haven't got the full side though. Presumably something like:
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Fred
Ambrose
Broad
Pattison
Whichever of Anderson & Sidebottom is fit
Panesar

Unless they've dropped Panesar for this game

 

[Magrat Garlick]

According to cricinfo's headline, Collingwood's been dropped and Pattison's playing.
They haven't got the full side though. Presumably something like:
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Fred
Ambrose
Broad
Pattison
Whichever of Anderson & Sidebottom is fit
Panesar

Unless they've dropped Panesar for this game

OK, that's it. I'm turning my coat.

 

[Zinzan]

Damn it, Sky NZ aren't showing the 1st session due to the Open, Rugby league & a replay of the All Blacks test - go figure !!!

 

[Marius]

Damn it, Sky NZ aren't showing the 1st session due to the Open, Rugby league & a replay of the All Blacks test - go figure !!!

The replay of the All Blacks Test from last week Saturday? The one where the Springboks won?

Allan Donald wrote in the Telegraph saying Harris should be dropped for Andre Nel. Not too sure about that. I like Harris, I think he should be kept in the side.

 

[wpdavid]

OK, that's it. I'm turning my coat.

Colly must be really chuffed to be dropped after copping a shocker at Lord's.

It reminds me of some of the 1980's lineups we saw when Peter May thought it a good idea to bat Capel or Pringle at 6 as the side's all-rounder and bring in all sorts of odds & sods as bowlers afer the first choice attack had buggered off to SA.

EDIT
Pattinson's in for Sidebottom and apparently will bat below Panesar. Anderson's batting at 9. Abrose is indeed at 6 btw.

Today's starter is to find a weaker bottom 6 that has ever represented England.

 

[andyc]

It's unusual enough to get someone going from grade cricketer to Test squad-member within 5 months - it's probably near enough unheard-of to get someone going from grade cricketer to England Test squad-member within 5 months.

Because England's always been so careful in who they award caps to?

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I can only find the headline atm and nothing more. What's the weather like? Forecast I read suggests dav is not quite on the money, with irregular play through the first two days and then a full day on day 3

 

[_Ed_]

Damn it, Sky NZ aren't showing the 1st session due to the Open, Rugby league & a replay of the All Blacks test - go figure !!!

That pisses me off. I'm at work, I need cricket to watch. Furious tbh.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah BBC now saying Ambrose will bat at six

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah BBC now saying Ambrose will bat at six

Makes you weep when you think of some of the number 6's in test cricket over the years.

Our top 5 had better be in the form of their lives.

 

[Zinzan]

That pisses me off. I'm at work, I need cricket to watch. Furious tbh.

Indeed. Could forgive them if it was due to an important live event, but for a rugby replay when we lost

 

[Goughy]

English cricket is dead to me (or atleast until I get over it)

Even if the guy takes 5 wkts (probablilty and chance dictates its a posibility) there is no reason for this selection. None.

I hope he get booed. One of the worst selections Ive seen from England and that says a lot.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Today's starter is to find a weaker bottom 6 that has ever represented England.

That's easy. (Ramprakash), Habib, Read, Caddick, Headley, Mullally, Tufnell.

 

[_Ed_]

Tremlett has some grounds for feeling miffed.