Bodyline. (Leg theory)

[Richard]

If you're saying McCabe wasn't a talented bat then I have to disagree. (Your turn of phrase has me slightly confused).

I was saying McCabe was damn good under normal circumstances, and in that first-innings in the First Test of the Bodyline series played an innings which batsmen expect to play once in a career.

 

[Richard]

No, they were using it as early as the MCC game at Lords before the first test.

Rightyho.

& doesn't the very fact that Jardine scored his only test century against leg theory suggest that maybe it wasn't as hard to effectively counter as all that?

TBH, no, it doesn't. Jardine's innings is held in huge regard, and it's always seemed from what I've read that he upped his game in order to prove he could deal with the tactic he had meted-out the previous winter.

Let it not be forgotten that Jardine himself was a batsman of very high standard. Almost certainly every bit as good as McCabe.

 

[archie mac]

Rightyho.

TBH, no, it doesn't. Jardine's innings is held in huge regard, and it's always seemed from what I've read that he upped his game in order to prove he could deal with the tactic he had meted-out the previous winter.

Let it not be forgotten that Jardine himself was a batsman of very high standard. Almost certainly every bit as good as McCabe.

I don't agree with that last point tbh

Jardine never scored a ton against the best team in the world at the time Aust
But McCabe was able to achieve it on more than one occasion against England. I have never heard of anyone comparing Jardine fav. with Stan

 

[Nate]

Brilliant initiative for mine.

 

[archie mac]

I was under the impression that Larwood and Voce in 1932\33 used the tactic rather more often than Constantine and Martindale in 1933. Maybe I was mistaken.

No you are right, I think he is making a different point

 

[Richard]

I don't agree with that last point tbh

Jardine never scored a ton against the best team in the world at the time Aust
But McCabe was able to achieve it on more than one occasion against England. I have never heard of anyone comparing Jardine fav. with Stan

Come on, Jardine scored 98! That's as good as.

Obviously, McCabe's Test career was a better one than Jardine's - McCabe played 39 Tests, never missing a single one, over 8 years. Jardine played just 22 (4 of these of which were disposable affairs against New Zealand, so 18 really), over 5-and-a-half years, missed 15 that he could have played in, and was 27 years of age before he debuted.

Jardine's case has always been something of a mystery to me. Why did he not play more Test cricket? I am fully confident, given what I know of the achievements he did manage, that he could have done so much more had he been given the chance.

 

[archie mac]

Come on, Jardine scored 98! That's as good as.

Obviously, McCabe's Test career was a better one than Jardine's - McCabe played 39 Tests, never missing a single one, over 8 years. Jardine played just 22 (4 of these of which were disposable affairs against New Zealand, so 18 really), over 5-and-a-half years, missed 15 that he could have played in, and was 27 years of age before he debuted.

Jardine's case has always been something of a mystery to me. Why did he not play more Test cricket? I am fully confident, given what I know of the achievements he did manage, that he could have done so much more had he been given the chance.

I agree but I still don't think in the class of McCabe. Bradman said that Jardine a fine batsman

Things were different then and as an amatuer Jardine was unable to make many trips away from England or even play in all of the Surrey matches every year.

A very good bio on Jardine by Christopher Douglas explains it in great entertaining detail

 

[Richard]

Yeah, I guess the amateur thing could always present potential problems, depending on the line of work. I've never known what Jardine did.

Will look-out for said bio.

 

[pasag]

The age old debate. You can only imagine if CW was around back then, how many hundreds of pages would be dedicated to it. I don't really like to stand on either side of the debate, but I will say I understand both sides and their positions.

 

[pasag]

Yeah, I guess the amateur thing could always present potential problems, depending on the line of work. I've never known what Jardine did.

Will look-out for said bio.

Yeah, going from memory he didn't always make himself available because of other commitments and priorities (I think work) and I'm not sure he was always first name on the squad sheet either, though I'm pretty hazy on this point.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I was saying McCabe was damn good under normal circumstances, and in that first-innings in the First Test of the Bodyline series played an innings which batsmen expect to play once in a career.

That's alright then

 

[Son Of Coco]

Yeah, I guess the amateur thing could always present potential problems, depending on the line of work. I've never known what Jardine did.

Will look-out for said bio.

I think he was employed picking the feathers out of live chickens one-by-one. In his spare time he attached 9 volt batteries to the tongues of kittens as a hobby.

 

[Richard]

The age old debate. You can only imagine if CW was around back then, how many hundreds of pages would be dedicated to it.

It's rather a shame it wasn't, for mine. I think that'd have been quite fascinating.

Thing is, though, of course, pretty much all evidence suggests that had things like live ball-by-ball TV coverage and the internet been around - heck, even had a top-ranking journalist like EW Swanton been on the tour - in 1932\33 the tactic would have been stopped, probably even before the First Test.

Perhaps that'd have been for the best, also.

 

[Son Of Coco]

It's rather a shame it wasn't, for mine. I think that'd have been quite fascinating.

Thing is, though, of course, pretty much all evidence suggests that had things like live ball-by-ball TV coverage and the internet been around - heck, even had a top-ranking journalist like EW Swanton been on the tour - in 1932\33 the tactic would have been stopped, probably even before the First Test.

Perhaps that'd have been for the best, also.

By the time we wrote the letters, posted them in to a central point which then sent out a newsletter including all of them, we received and read this letter, and then replied...the series would be over.

 

[Engle]

Jardine, in his strategic thinking, would not have been oblivious to the fact that Australia had no means of retaliation, what with O'Reilly opening the attack with pacers named Wall and Alexander.

Had the Aussies but a Thommo in their lineup, one wonders whether Bodyline would ever have been

 

[pasag]

It's rather a shame it wasn't, for mine. I think that'd have been quite fascinating.

Thing is, though, of course, pretty much all evidence suggests that had things like live ball-by-ball TV coverage and the internet been around - heck, even had a top-ranking journalist like EW Swanton been on the tour - in 1932\33 the tactic would have been stopped, probably even before the First Test.

Perhaps that'd have been for the best, also.

Haha, well don't want to get drawn in to the pedanticness, but obviously it'd be assuming that everything else was equal, except Yabba and co could also post when they got home at night, not the butterfly effect sort of thing.

 

[neville cardus]

Thanks lads
I love the BL series, and love to discuss it. It is well to remember that this forum has a lot of people at different levels at their learning of the history of this great game.
Although NC at the age of 18 with the knowledge he already has, scares me

Actually, it ain't that impressive: I'll be nineteen at the end of the month.

 

[neville cardus]

I was under the impression that Larwood and Voce in 1932\33 used the tactic rather more often than Constantine and Martindale in 1933. Maybe I was mistaken.

You weren't. It just seemed to me that you were suggesting that the application of the tactic in 1932/33 was sustained and unremitting.

 

[neville cardus]

I don't agree with that last point tbh
Jardine never scored a ton against the best team in the world at the time Aust

That, but for Warwick Armstrong's bloody-mindedness, he would probably have scored one against an even stronger outfit in 1921 says something.

Jardine was grossly out of form in 1932/33: on the rare occasion that he did score, he was so sluggish that even England's present crop of apoplectics would have scoffed. It is hardly fair to judge him by his efforts that year, at one stage of which he seriously considered dropping himself.

But McCabe was able to achieve it on more than one occasion against England. I have never heard of anyone comparing Jardine fav. with Stan

It's a new one to me, too -- indeed, I've never seen them compared at all --, but it's not difficult to understand why. Being of such different temperaments, they do not immediately spring to mind as candidates for comparison.

 

[neville cardus]

Will look-out for said bio.

There is a handbook bearing his name not far from my uni. Heard of it, Archie?