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Who's the greatest left handed batsman of alltime?

Who do you think is the greatest left handed batsman of alltime?


  • Total voters
    61

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
No Grimmett and no Verity.

No Oldfield, Tallon or Bob Taylor but he finds a spot for Andy Flower and Kirmani in the 3rd XI above every keeper bar Gilchrist and Blackham.

No Ponsford, Mankad or Merchant while he was so short of openers that he opens with Walcott in one team and McCabe in another. McCabe never opened in his life and Walcott opened thrice averaging 8.67 !!

Yes Mr Armstrong has some very interesting choices.:)
Agreed. Can't believe he'd open with McCabe, and if you have to pick one of the three Ws to open then it should be Worrell as at least he did it a dozen times or so with some success. Though Kirmani was the 5th XI wasn't he? I thought he picked Gilly, Knott, Blackham, Evans in that order before him? Don't have the book in front of me though so I could be wrong!
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Armstrong annoys me tbh, he takes every opportuity to denegrate Grimmett and others he does not rate, for what ever reason, and then often writes it as fact rather than his own opinion. How Border is that far in front of Harvey and Hill is just a joke imho:@
I know you're a big fan of Hill mate (as I am) and I think we're agreed he was the greatest Aussie leftie before Morris/Harvey, ahead of Bardsley. But where does he rank for you among all pre-Bradman Australian batsmen - compared to say Trumper, Macartney and Murdoch? Would be interested to hear your thoughts. :)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Tendulkar played his best cricket when Dravid was far from established in the team. Indian fans in the 90s didn't turn off their television sets for nothing when Tendulkar got out.
TBF it was probably half-and-half - Tendulkar played his best cricket between 1990 and 2002, conveniently bookended with England tours, and conventiently Dravid established himself in 1996 - on, yes, you guessed it - an England tour. :)
 

analyst

U19 12th Man
Because I have not had the luxoury of seeing Pollock or Sobers, I would have normally voted for Lara easily because as much as I admire Hayden's aggression. I have always thought there was only one batsman in the last 15-20 years with such ability to terrify a bowler before he even ran upto his bowling crease and that was Lara.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Agreed. Can't believe he'd open with McCabe, and if you have to pick one of the three Ws to open then it should be Worrell as at least he did it a dozen times or so with some success. Though Kirmani was the 5th XI wasn't he? I thought he picked Gilly, Knott, Blackham, Evans in that order before him? Don't have the book in front of me though so I could be wrong!
You maybe right I am speaking of the top of my head.

Yes. Here it is The nine keepers chosen by rank

1. Gilchrist
2. Knott
3. Blackham
4. Evans
5. Kirmani
6. Ames
7. Bari
8. Healy
9. Andy Flower
 
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archie mac

International Coach
You maybe right I am speaking of the top of my head.

Yes. Here it is The nine keepers chosen by rank

1. Gilchrist
2. Knott
3. Blackham
4. Evans
5. Kirmani
6. Ames
7. Bari
8. Healy
9. Andy Flower
When almost every player who watched him Keep, rated Tallon the best they had ever watched (including Bradman) this list is another joke, from Mr Armstrong, he could have at least admitted it was too hard to choose a keeper on keeping alone and chosen batsman/keepers who were also considered very fine keepers behind the wickets, so not players like Walcott and Phillips for instance. Players such as Dujon seemed a bit stiff, was quite a good keeper
 

archie mac

International Coach
I know you're a big fan of Hill mate (as I am) and I think we're agreed he was the greatest Aussie leftie before Morris/Harvey, ahead of Bardsley. But where does he rank for you among all pre-Bradman Australian batsmen - compared to say Trumper, Macartney and Murdoch? Would be interested to hear your thoughts. :)
In the first half of his career Hill was ave: close to 50, this dropped off in the second half of his career, so for a while he was the best batsman in the world.

Over all though I would rate him just a little behind all of those you have named, Murdoch was the best batsman for quite a time, as was the GG after WWI

Stats suggest he was very even with Trumper, but he had no doubt in his own mind that Trumper was the better:)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
You maybe right I am speaking of the top of my head.

Yes. Here it is The nine keepers chosen by rank

1. Gilchrist
2. Knott
3. Blackham
4. Evans
5. Kirmani
6. Ames
7. Bari
8. Healy
9. Andy Flower
How on Earth someone could use the same criteria to come up with a list that includes Blackham (acknowledged the master gloveman) and Andy Flower and Gilchrist (THE master batsmen-wicketkeepers) is beyond me. :confused::wacko:

Not to mention Flower not atopping the list, too.
 

Malleeboy

U19 12th Man
Back to the original topic....

I've voted Sobers. However I really can't believe the "dissing" that Hayden got. Opening is a different skill to batting down the order. Having to face the new ball, fresh bowlers and usually the pitch at its liveliest is obviously not rated much in the eyes of people around here. I think the great thing Hayden has, that a few great openers didn't, is that he can weather the tough ball but step up be belligerent and aggresive once things have settled. That imposing frame coming down the pitch is intimadating to most bowlers. Several great openers of eras past could survive the unsurvivable but were often stuck in first gear, especially as their careers progressed.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Back to the original topic....

I've voted Sobers. However I really can't believe the "dissing" that Hayden got. Opening is a different skill to batting down the order. Having to face the new ball, fresh bowlers and usually the pitch at its liveliest is obviously not rated much in the eyes of people around here. I think the great thing Hayden has, that a few great openers didn't, is that he can weather the tough ball but step up be belligerent and aggresive once things have settled. That imposing frame coming down the pitch is intimadating to most bowlers. Several great openers of eras past could survive the unsurvivable but were often stuck in first gear, especially as their careers progressed.
I think Mat the Bat a fine batsman just not in the class of some of the others on this list:)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Back to the original topic....

I've voted Sobers. However I really can't believe the "dissing" that Hayden got. Opening is a different skill to batting down the order. Having to face the new ball, fresh bowlers and usually the pitch at its liveliest is obviously not rated much in the eyes of people around here. I think the great thing Hayden has, that a few great openers didn't, is that he can weather the tough ball but step up be belligerent and aggresive once things have settled. That imposing frame coming down the pitch is intimadating to most bowlers. Several great openers of eras past could survive the unsurvivable but were often stuck in first gear, especially as their careers progressed.
Most of us are guilty of being conditioned by stereotypes. This affects our judgement sub-conciously - not to be confused with bas :) . Does this affect our judgement of Hayden? Let me explain.

Left handers are a species apart - particularly the left handed batsmen. They look so graceful. Their batting is so effortless. Many of them seem to caress the ball. The ball races off the bat after a mere nano second of contact almost without touching it. They are such artists. Its almost as if their batting is enjoyable even to the hapless bowlers. Never are they an 'affront' to the bowler as it were. By and large we would expect them to be lithe, lissom, almost slender even if tall and so on.

Hayden just doesn't fit that mould.

He is big as in BIG and appears BIGger. He is a giant with murder in his eyes. His demeanour is of a terrorist. He is a terminator. He slaughters the ball. He slaughters the ball and it explodes off the bat screaming blue murder. He scares the sh** out of us sitting thousands of miles away watching the small screen. He is not a guy you want to mess around with.

I suspect all this makes us somehow undervalue a great batsman. I have been guilty of the same myself. When he is on the rampage he is so damn domineering a 'flat-pitch' and'ineffective bowling' is what he forces us to think. And when he dies by the sword and walks off still looking like that murderer we think of the 'lumpen brought to book by superior intellect'.

For those who love stats , he has 27 hundreds in 89 tests - only Bradman and Tendulkar have got there faster, averages 53 plus in tests and has the second highest test innings ever to his credit.

I think he is a master batsman in his on way and I suspect many other batsmen we admire and call great must be looking at him at the crease when on song and wishing they could be a bit like him too.

I love watching him bat and can watch him everyday.

I agree with Mac he is a bit 'uncomfortable' in that list but how I wish he was playing for India :)
 
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Malleeboy

U19 12th Man
I think Mat the Bat a fine batsman just not in the class of some of the others on this list:)
I'd probably agree, but I just get the feeling that openers are ever given as much credit as they deserve. Clearly opening generally reduces the average and increases the pressure on batsman. No one when one making a team list would just pick the top six or seven batsman and force a non opener into having to open. For me there are three classes of batsman, and from each I expect different things.(This may be a very Australian view) Openers primary roll is to survive when they shouldn't and blunt the worst of conditions. Middle orders' primary roll is to make the big innings, usually by crafting a knock to suit the varying conditions. Lower order batsman are to attack and get on with it.

So I'm wary of best batsman lists because I view that their are distinctions in requirements depending on were they are in the order. I think most people give all the kudos to the middle order guys and don't rate the two other types highly enough. For example, if lower order batsmans primary roll is to ensure runs are scored quickly then Gilchrist strike rate must make him the best proponent of that type of batting. (Or Doug Walter's)

I suppose all I'm saying is that you have to look at where someone batted and whether they fulfilled what the team really required of them as a batsman at that position to ensure the best result for the team. I wouldn't rate a guy who batted for his average (no matter how good it ended up being) when the team required quick runs to ensure a victory. Also that the position and the requirements of that position to the "betterment" of the team were more highly valued, not just the show pony racking up of huge scores to break records. (And I'm not just having a hack at Brian Lara.)
 
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archie mac

International Coach
I'd probably agree, but I just get the feeling that openers are ever given as much credit as they deserve. Clearly opening generally reduces the average and increases the pressure on batsman. No one when one making a team list would just pick the top six or seven batsman and force a non opener into having to open. For me there and three classes of batsman, and from each I expect different things.(This may be a very Australian view) Openers primary roll is to survive when they shouldn't and blunt the worst of conditions. Middle orders' primary roll is to make the big innings, usually by crafting a knock to suit the varying conditions. Lower order batsman are to attack and get on with it.

So I'm wary of best batsman lists because I view that their are distinctions in requirements depending on were they are in the order. I think most people give all the kudos to the middle order guys and don't rate the two other types highly enough. For example, if lower order batsmans primary roll is to ensure runs are scored quickly then Gilchrist strike rate must make him the best proponent of that type of batting. (Or Doug Walter's)

I suppose all I'm saying is that you have to look at where someone batted and whether they fulfilled what the team really required of them as a batsman at that position to ensure the best result for the team. I wouldn't rate a guy who batted for his average (no matter how good it ended up being) when the team required quick runs to ensure a victory. Also that the position and the requirements of that position to the "betterment" of the team were more highly valued, not just the show pony racking up of huge scores to break records. (And I'm not just having a hack at Brian Lara.)
Good post, I would add that often the N0.3 and sometimes the No.4 come in vey early sometimes in the first over, and still face their fair share of the new ball, but yes I agree when picking a team you should pick two openers first.:)
 

Malleeboy

U19 12th Man
I should also say that there are two types of lower order batsman I rate The "get on with it" and "help the tale wag". Steve Waugh was a master at helping the tale wag in Tests and Bevan was superb at it in ODI.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
However I really can't believe the "dissing" that Hayden got. Opening is a different skill to batting down the order. Having to face the new ball, fresh bowlers and usually the pitch at its liveliest is obviously not rated much in the eyes of people around here. I think the great thing Hayden has, that a few great openers didn't, is that he can weather the tough ball but step up be belligerent and aggresive once things have settled. That imposing frame coming down the pitch is intimadating to most bowlers. Several great openers of eras past could survive the unsurvivable but were often stuck in first gear, especially as their careers progressed.
This is the thing - opening is supposed to be about such things. For most of the last 6 years, it hasn't been - opening bowlers have been rubbish, pitches have barely offered a thing and balls have been almost as-a-rule refusing to swing much or for that long.

Now, it's no coincidence that there've been any number of openers who've cashed-in - and been able to bat far more aggressively, not just as the ball's got older, but with it virtually brand-new. Hayden and Langer, Smith and Gibbs, Gayle, Sehwag, Trescothick, Strauss, etc. - all strokeplayers who very possibly wouldn't succeed against top-class opening bowling.

In the 1990s, there were perhaps 2 openers who succeeded by attacking quality new-ball bowling: Saeed Anwar and Michael Slater. All other top-class openers (Taylor, Kirsten, Atherton, Atapattu, Hudson for a time, etc.) were defensive players. Same applies to the 1980s: Gooch and Greenidge were two in a crowd that featured the likes of Gavaskar, Marsh, Haynes, Mudassar, etc. Same in the 1970s too: Fredericks and Greenidge again contrasted with Boycott, Gavaskar again, Edrich, the list goes on.

Now, Matthew Hayden has, as far as I'm concerned, been exposed every (very rare) occasion he's come-up against quality swing-and-seam bowling, especially inswing. The greater part of this came earlier on in his career. Hence, I don't really count him as that good an opening batsman, and it's my opinion that he'd have struggled to average 30 and wouldn't have been around very long in almost any other era of cricket, bar maybe the 1930s when batting was also often pretty easy.
 

archie mac

International Coach
This is the thing - opening is supposed to be about such things. For most of the last 6 years, it hasn't been - opening bowlers have been rubbish, pitches have barely offered a thing and balls have been almost as-a-rule refusing to swing much or for that long.

Now, it's no coincidence that there've been any number of openers who've cashed-in - and been able to bat far more aggressively, not just as the ball's got older, but with it virtually brand-new. Hayden and Langer, Smith and Gibbs, Gayle, Sehwag, Trescothick, Strauss, etc. - all strokeplayers who very possibly wouldn't succeed against top-class opening bowling.

In the 1990s, there were perhaps 2 openers who succeeded by attacking quality new-ball bowling: Saeed Anwar and Michael Slater. All other top-class openers (Taylor, Kirsten, Atherton, Atapattu, Hudson for a time, etc.) were defensive players. Same applies to the 1980s: Gooch and Greenidge were two in a crowd that featured the likes of Gavaskar, Marsh, Haynes, Mudassar, etc. Same in the 1970s too: Fredericks and Greenidge again contrasted with Boycott, Gavaskar again, Edrich, the list goes on.

Now, Matthew Hayden has, as far as I'm concerned, been exposed every (very rare) occasion he's come-up against quality swing-and-seam bowling, especially inswing. The greater part of this came earlier on in his career. Hence, I don't really count him as that good an opening batsman, and it's my opinion that he'd have struggled to average 30 and wouldn't have been around very long in almost any other era of cricket, bar maybe the 1930s when batting was also often pretty easy.
Maybe a little less in the 70s/80s but 30? No way!
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Maybe a little less in the 70s/80s but 30? No way!
It is true that bowlingstandards have gone down and this has resulted in inflated batting averages. It has also reduced the differenciation between the great batsmen and the good ones.

I have no doubt that had the bowling standards been higher, the top bracket of batsmen would have evolved accordingly and would have managed to play those bowlers pretty well too, maybe with slightly lower averages.

The second rung batsmen who may be strutting around with averages in or approaching the fifties would have struggled and their averages would have suffered much more damage. The problem today with good wickets and average bowling is to separate the wheat from the chaff. And that is a tragedy.
 

archie mac

International Coach
It is true that bowlingstandards have gone down and this has resulted in inflated batting averages. It has also reduced the differenciation between the great batsmen and the good ones.

I have no doubt that had the bowling standards been higher, the top bracket of batsmen would have evolved accordingly and would have managed to play those bowlers pretty well too, maybe with slightly lower averages.

The second rung batsmen who may be strutting around with averages in or approaching the fifties would have struggled and their averages would have suffered much more damage. The problem today with good wickets and average bowling is to separate the wheat from the chaff. And that is a tragedy.
Agreed, but what do you think Hayden would have averaged in the 70s/80s?
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
I'll give you the top 10 left-handed batsmen based on my Test Ratings

1. Sobers
2. Lara
3. Pollock
4. Hayden
5. Border
6. Hussey
7. Harvey
8. Sangakkara
9. Gilchrist
10. Langer

P.S. having seen both play, Trumper was more pleasing to watch, but Clem was more consistent.
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I'll give you the top 10 left-handed batsmen based on my Test Ratings

1. Sobers
2. Lara
3. Pollock
4. Hayden
5. Border
6. Hussey
7. Harvey
8. Sangakkara
9. Gilchrist
10. Langer

P.S. having seen both play, Trumper was more pleasing to watch, but Clem was more consistent.
Finally - someone who can tell us just how quick SF Barnes really was. ;)
 

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