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The best after the Don? CW ranked 25 contenders, here is the countdown thread

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bolo I think your history is a little revisionist there.

Warne wad massive for the game in the 90s. It began every team's search for a spinner and also got heaps of eyeballs on the game when he was on. He also got many kids around the world interested in bowling spin.

He also was pivotal to Australia's 1999 World Cup win and broke a ton of bowling records in the 90s. Remember that the list was created before Murali or Kumble really set the world on fire.

And 1993-1997 (inclusive) is 5 years, which is a decent chunk of time and longer than many other players careers.

Sure his form was patchy from 1998-2001 largely due to his shoulder operation but at the time including the best spinner who had ever played the game in the top 5 cricketers of all time was not a huge stretch.
 

Chrish

International Debutant
For me it’s criminal how Warne gets into top 5 and McGrath is no where to be found. Warne wouldn’t have been anywhere as success if it weren’t for Mcg consistently knocking over the top order. Stats also support the theory as there is remarkable difference in Warne’s bowling average in games with vs without McGrath. Conversely, McGrath’s average hardly gets affected with Warne’s absence.

McGrath >> Warne as a cricketer for me easily..
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
That's poor logic. Warne was tearing it up before McGrath debuted and in the 2005 Ashes where McGrath was injured for two of the tests Warne took 40 wickets and carried the bowling attack.

Statistically he might be poorer because the time before he really got good McGrath wasn't playing yet so that constitutes a greater part of that record.

It's like saying Garner or Holding owe all of their success to Marshall, which is complete rot.
 

morgieb

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah, he is a bowling Chanderpaul. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by low grade teams.
At least Hadlee was able to push New Zealand to a fairly high level. Chanderpaul really didn't for the West Indies.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I think bowlers can probably do that more than batsmen, generally speaking. But it's certainly true. If that NZ team of the mid-late 80s could have had another opening bowler of even a later career Merv Hughes sort of standard, they'd have been really good, given they had Crowe, Wright and Jones who were all very good-great players. John F Reid was good as well, but didn't play that many tests. Bracewell was a solid spin option and Coney was a crafty skipper. They just lacked a genuinely good new ball partner for Paddles to take them to the next level imo.
 

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
This is why I say he’s in the argument. I’m not the one saying he would make every country’s all time XI here.

Kiwis are known for being notoriously balanced, having chips on both shoulders. But comparing Hadlee to Chanderpaul isn’t an insult to either. The situations they found themselves in wrt to the strength of the teams the played in is pretty accurate. You could also say he was a bowling Allan Border in that sense. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player ffs. Those blokes carried their often mediocre teams and stood out like dogs balls. It’s hardly an insult to any of them.
As long as we can label McGrath as the bowling Desmond Haynes, and Lillee the bowling Ian Bell, we're all good to go. Of course this isn't an insult to Mcgrath or Lillee, only Haynes was prolific and played in the great windies side, while Bell primarily played in a good English side.

We all good?
 

Bolo

State Captain
Bolo I think your history is a little revisionist there.

Warne wad massive for the game in the 90s. It began every team's search for a spinner and also got heaps of eyeballs on the game when he was on. He also got many kids around the world interested in bowling spin.

He also was pivotal to Australia's 1999 World Cup win and broke a ton of bowling records in the 90s. Remember that the list was created before Murali or Kumble really set the world on fire.

And 1993-1997 (inclusive) is 5 years, which is a decent chunk of time and longer than many other players careers.

Sure his form was patchy from 1998-2001 largely due to his shoulder operation but at the time including the best spinner who had ever played the game in the top 5 cricketers of all time was not a huge stretch.
Questioning a desire for 4 fast bowlers feels revisionist to me yes. However, it's possible to correct a common misunderstanding, and gain more perspective after the fact. Revisionism is not implicitly right or wrong, it depends on whether you were right or wrong in the first place. Warne's position does not feel like revisionism to me at all, but even if it was, should he be the only player of the century not subject to revisionism?

You state again that he revived countries' desire for spin. I've listed every test nation and tried to show no correlation between him and fielding a spinner. Either prove me incorrect on my assessment of a handful of these countries or accept that it was a false belief.

As for 5 years being enough, it simply isn't. This is the best of the best. I think it's more fair to give him a great 8 year career, but compare this to the rest of the top 5, averaging around 20 years. If the cutoff was 2018, Steve Smith would also have had 8 years with a comparably great 5 years. No cricket fan in their right mind would vote him in. If he keeps up his purple patch for another 12 years and then we vote, everyone would put him in.
 

Bolo

State Captain
For me it’s criminal how Warne gets into top 5 and McGrath is no where to be found. Warne wouldn’t have been anywhere as success if it weren’t for Mcg consistently knocking over the top order. Stats also support the theory as there is remarkable difference in Warne’s bowling average in games with vs without McGrath. Conversely, McGrath’s average hardly gets affected with Warne’s absence.

McGrath >> Warne as a cricketer for me easily..
McGrath only started getting good in about 1995, long after Warne had built his reputation. You can make an argument that he was the best quick of the late 90s, but you can make just as good an argument for a number of others, including a number that had been doing it for longer. Warne was in a class of his own as a spinner for a long time until Murali got great.

McGrath's reputation comes from the 2000s when all the other quicks faded away and he just got better.

It's fair that Warne had more of a reputation early on, and I think their current relative reputations are fair too. No problem with saying either is greater. They are both typically rated (at worst) top 5 in their respective disciplines. Saying one of them is GOAT and the other is 5th is splitting hairs when comparing them to each other seeing as they are different types of bowlers.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
As for 5 years being enough, it simply isn't. This is the best of the best. I think it's more fair to give him a great 8 year career, but compare this to the rest of the top 5, averaging around 20 years. If the cutoff was 2018, Steve Smith would also have had 8 years with a comparably great 5 years. No cricket fan in their right mind would vote him in. If he keeps up his purple patch for another 12 years and then we vote, everyone would put him in.
5 years of a purple patch, 8 years with an ATG record in the hardest discipline in cricket. It's fair to say he was rated extremely highly by everyone in the cricket community.

Warne was an absolute superstar and honestly if it wasn't for Murali coming along at virtually the same time, Warne would have been hailed as unequivocally the greatest spinner of all time. In 2000 he was.
 

Bolo

State Captain
I've got a lot of respect for Warne, and have no problem with anyone rating him as the GOAT spinner, even though he wouldn't be my own 1st choice.

But unfounded statements like:

He revived spin bowling- previously covered.

He was the undisputed greatest spinner ever on the back of 8 years- (O'Reilly, Laker, Barnes, Grimmett etc would all be worth a shout) is silly. Yes, he was so good for the first 8 years that you could have made a reasonable argument he was the best had he retired in 2000, but the same goes for many other players, and you aren't seeing these guys in the W5.

He was better because his discipline is the hardest- IIRC, this Warne-inpired myth started with the amount of control he got. It went from 'its difficult to control the ball as a big spinning leggie' to 'only Warne can control the ball as a leggie' to 'legspin is the toughest discipline'. No disrespect to Warne on this one BTW. Plenty of players have managed control or big spin as well as variation, but it was Warnes combination that really made him special. But this doesn't mean being a leggie is somehow tougher than being an offspinner. Historically, legspinners have outperformed offspinners on everything except the most dire pitches. There had been a run of decent leggies before Warne for many years before you get the first decent offspinner. And that's not to say offspin is even the hardest disciple. If whatever Barnes bowled was easy, we would have seen more players doing it.

Ignoring arguments and cherry picking 'truisms' for Warne is a type of fanboyism approaching Tendulkar levels. Like Tendulkar, it's possible to have a very high opinion of him without actually resorting to hyperbole and construction of new categories.
 

Gob

International Coach
Yeah, he is a bowling Chanderpaul. I don't see how it's an insult to him. Both prolific and excellent, surrounded for the most part by low grade teams.
Get the point but also get the reason why people get ants in their pants cos Hadlee is far greater cricketer compared to Shiv. Replace Lara with Shiv and you are fine

Personally think Hadlee is the 3rd greatest quick of all time so naturally would make in to all AT sides
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I've got a lot of respect for Warne, and have no problem with anyone rating him as the GOAT spinner, even though he wouldn't be my own 1st choice.

But unfounded statements like:

He revived spin bowling- previously covered.

He was the undisputed greatest spinner ever on the back of 8 years- (O'Reilly, Laker, Barnes, Grimmett etc would all be worth a shout) is silly. Yes, he was so good for the first 8 years that you could have made a reasonable argument he was the best had he retired in 2000, but the same goes for many other players, and you aren't seeing these guys in the W5.

He was better because his discipline is the hardest- IIRC, this Warne-inpired myth started with the amount of control he got. It went from 'its difficult to control the ball as a big spinning leggie' to 'only Warne can control the ball as a leggie' to 'legspin is the toughest discipline'. No disrespect to Warne on this one BTW. Plenty of players have managed control or big spin as well as variation, but it was Warnes combination that really made him special. But this doesn't mean being a leggie is somehow tougher than being an offspinner. Historically, legspinners have outperformed offspinners on everything except the most dire pitches. There had been a run of decent leggies before Warne for many years before you get the first decent offspinner. And that's not to say offspin is even the hardest disciple. If whatever Barnes bowled was easy, we would have seen more players doing it.

Ignoring arguments and cherry picking 'truisms' for Warne is a type of fanboyism approaching Tendulkar levels. Like Tendulkar, it's possible to have a very high opinion of him without actually resorting to hyperbole and construction of new categories.
Except that Richie Benaud, the person who has attended more live games of cricket than anyone in history (as a spectator, player and commentator), who saw Grimmett and O'Reilly growing up and himself being a leg spinner also claimed that Warne was the greatest leg spinner in history. He was willing to claim this from very early on in Warne's career. Forumers tend to rate players based on their longevity far more than former players.

Finger spin is far easier to bowl to a competent level than leg spin due to human physiology. It's a lot easier to control the ball and get enough speed on the ball to be threatening as a finger spinner. There's a reason you more often see part time finger spinners than leg spinners. And finger spinners can tie down an end even when they're not threatening the batsmen far more easily than leg spinners.

If Warne had really revived leg spin then every team would have at least one leg spinner by now. The fact that even Australia doesn't play any leg spinner means that he couldn't revive leg spin elven in his own country. Warne is the greatest leg spinner ever. Let's not add much hyperbole to that.
There are a ton more leg spinners in world cricket now than when Warne started. When he started the only leg spinner of note in world cricket for the previous thirty years was Qadir. Since Warne Australia has played - MacGill, Hogg (not technically leg spin but the left arm variety), Casson, McGain, Smith, White, Zampa and probably a couple more who I'm forgetting. Lyon is our spinner now and we've tried Beer, Hauritz and a few others.

Warne showed everyone what a leg spinner could do and world cricket sat up and took notice. Did you ever wonder why there are so many wrist spinners in world cricket coming through right now? They're the kids who saw Warne, said "that looks awesome" and tried to start bowling leggies.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Well Sobers reckons Gupte was better than Warne. Primarily cause of the googly.

Warne has helped the cause of many bowlers though. Kuldeep Yadav being a good example.
 

sunilz

International Regular
There are a ton more leg spinners in world cricket now than when Warne started. When he started the only leg spinner of note in world cricket for the previous thirty years was Qadir. Since Warne Australia has played - MacGill, Hogg (not technically leg spin but the left arm variety), Casson, McGain, Smith, White, Zampa and probably a couple more who I'm forgetting. Lyon is our spinner now and we've tried Beer, Hauritz and a few others.

Warne showed everyone what a leg spinner could do and world cricket sat up and took notice. Did you ever wonder why there are so many wrist spinners in world cricket coming through right now? They're the kids who saw Warne, said "that looks awesome" and tried to start bowling leggies.
I have read these type of arguments from Sachin fanboys. Tendulkar had pressure of billion people. Dhoni, Sehwag , Kohli all batsmen are due to Tendulkar only. I think we are going nowhere by making arguments like these.
 

Bolo

State Captain
Except that Richie Benaud, the person who has attended more live games of cricket than anyone in history (as a spectator, player and commentator), who saw Grimmett and O'Reilly growing up and himself being a leg spinner also claimed that Warne was the greatest leg spinner in history. He was willing to claim this from very early on in Warne's career. Forumers tend to rate players based on their longevity far more than former players.

Finger spin is far easier to bowl to a competent level than leg spin due to human physiology. It's a lot easier to control the ball and get enough speed on the ball to be threatening as a finger spinner. There's a reason you more often see part time finger spinners than leg spinners. And finger spinners can tie down an end even when they're not threatening the batsmen far more easily than leg spinners.



There are a ton more leg spinners in world cricket now than when Warne started. When he started the only leg spinner of note in world cricket for the previous thirty years was Qadir. Since Warne Australia has played - MacGill, Hogg (not technically leg spin but the left arm variety), Casson, McGain, Smith, White, Zampa and probably a couple more who I'm forgetting. Lyon is our spinner now and we've tried Beer, Hauritz and a few others.

Warne showed everyone what a leg spinner could do and world cricket sat up and took notice. Did you ever wonder why there are so many wrist spinners in world cricket coming through right now? They're the kids who saw Warne, said "that looks awesome" and tried to start bowling leggies.

An argument from authority using a single source is extremely weak (especially choosing a source from his country), but even if he was correct, so what? Ive already said I don't mind people claiming reasonably early in his career that he was the greatest spinner ever (this is actually more than Benaud is saying because he refers only to leg spinners). But this isn't a reason to reinvent the history of cricket to give him some ethereal impact on the game to try to make him look even better.

And of course longevity matters in a discussion of this sort. See Steve Smith.

In a discussion of the ATGs, are you really trying to construct an argument about finger spin being easier because it's easier to be mediocre in it? How is this relevant? And this despite leggies outperforming offies through most of the course of history.

There were 3 good (or at least decent) wrist spinners actually playing when Warne debutted- Qadir, Ahmed and Kumble. The last time there was an offspinner that was of this quality was the mid 70s probably. You don't hear people claiming Murali revived off-spin.

Are there more leggie playing now than when warne started? Yes, but this is a combination of limited overs (in which the dominance of leg spin came long after Warne, only in the last few years), more matches being played, and more players being fielded. There are a lot more seamers too, and a lot more off-spinners. And unlike pre-Warne, we actually have several teams fielding good off-spinners, while the number of good legspinners is probably less now than when warne debuted.

Australia have tried a number of leggies since Warne. Is this Warnes impact or the fact that AUS have produced a large number of top leggies and not a single top off-spinner? Who knows, but I dont think Warne would want to claim a legacy of creating a revolving door policy on mediocre leggies that weakened the side for years until they eventually settled on a good offspinner.

Kids emulate all top players. Warne is not unique. The kids that were watching Warne play in the 90s are approaching cricketing retirement age now. This argument is a bit ridiculous. The only country that was producing good leggies in the 2000s was Pakistan, who were producing good leggies themselves before and during Warne.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
For me it’s criminal how Warne gets into top 5 and McGrath is no where to be found. Warne wouldn’t have been anywhere as success if it weren’t for Mcg consistently knocking over the top order. Stats also support the theory as there is remarkable difference in Warne’s bowling average in games with vs without McGrath. Conversely, McGrath’s average hardly gets affected with Warne’s absence.

McGrath >> Warne as a cricketer for me easily..
forget about being an alltime top 5 player , McGrath was not even considered among top 5 bowlers of that time. (Akram , Warne , Donald , Ambrose , Waquar (also world record holder Walsh ) were the top 5 )
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
Bolo I think your history is a little revisionist there.

Warne wad massive for the game in the 90s. It began every team's search for a spinner and also got heaps of eyeballs on the game when he was on. He also got many kids around the world interested in bowling spin.

He also was pivotal to Australia's 1999 World Cup win and broke a ton of bowling records in the 90s. Remember that the list was created before Murali or Kumble really set the world on fire.

And 1993-1997 (inclusive) is 5 years, which is a decent chunk of time and longer than many other players careers.

Sure his form was patchy from 1998-2001 largely due to his shoulder operation but at the time including the best spinner who had ever played the game in the top 5 cricketers of all time was not a huge stretch.
Are you sure ?
kumble was taking like 5 wickets per test and already been in 250 wicket club iirc (if not 300)
he took 10wickets in an innings to be the 2nd one in history to do that.

and he was long been identified as the biggest match winner in the team where the best batsman in the world belonged.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
my issues with ESPN / Wisden25

Sobers was not 100/100

W.G.Grace underrated

Shane Warne over rated

Hadlee not in top 10

Inclusion of Steve Waugh and Border (Especially when ..Procter, Trueman , Ranji , Barnes , Trumper ..etc missing )

Absence of Mike Procter ..
I mean he is a more guaranteed atg than Barry Richards. What if Barry played more tests and was just 85% of what he is in fc ? he would have been rated a good or very good player not a Gavaskar or Lara .

But in the case of Procter , he can be just 85% of he is in the Fc and still be rated as an atg a Kapil or Botham league.

and what if they performed same as their fc records

Barry Richards - another arguable 2nd best to Don and arguable best opener of modern era along with Sunny.

Mike Procter - Greatest bowling all rounder ever. Bar none.
Greatest allrounder of any type bar Sobers. (and WG if yo go that far )
 

Bolo

State Captain
my issues with ESPN / Wisden25

Sobers was not 100/100

W.G.Grace underrated

Shane Warne over rated

Hadlee not in top 10

Inclusion of Steve Waugh and Border (Especially when ..Procter, Trueman , Ranji , Barnes , Trumper ..etc missing )

Absence of Mike Procter ..
I mean he is a more guaranteed atg than Barry Richards. What if Barry played more tests and was just 85% of what he is in fc ? he would have been rated a good or very good player not a Gavaskar or Lara .

But in the case of Procter , he can be just 85% of he is in the Fc and still be rated as an atg a Kapil or Botham league.

and what if they performed same as their fc records

Barry Richards - another arguable 2nd best to Don and arguable best opener of modern era along with Sunny.

Mike Procter - Greatest bowling all rounder ever. Bar none.
Greatest allrounder of any type bar Sobers. (and WG if yo go that far )
WG is the wrong century.
Ranji kinda wrong century

Hadlee so low is a bit of a travesty.

Procter doesn't really belong here IMO. It's not really a list of the most talented cricketers, it's a list of the ones who achieved the most, and that needs to include test cricket.

I would love to have known how strong Procter in particular would have been. His 1st class stats are ridiculous, and he spent half his career playing well past his best. For him to have averaged sub-20 with the ball in 1st despite having to switch to off-spin mid career must have meant some truly crazy results when he was bowling pace.

And 36 as a 1st class batting average playing in England and RSA is extremely impressive as well.

He likely wouldn't have had a full- length international career due to injury, but it would have been pretty spectacular while it lasted.
 

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