TheJediBrah
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I guess longevity is a factor not taken into account, and probably not that relevant, when it comes to this topic.
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Greatest teams of all time.
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
The great teams are flawless, or almost flawless. If you take England of the '50s they had Compton, Hutton, May, Edrich, Bedser, Fiery Fred, Lock and Laker, Statham, Typhoon Tyson for that Ashes when Trueman was ditched. The great Surrey and Yorkshire teams of the '50s basically provided the players. West Indies: pace quartet, Greenridge/Hayes, Richards, Richardson and Lloyd. Thing is with England now, they have loads of question marks. Basically Cook, Root, Anderson, Broad - and possibly Bairstow at a push - would be certified world class and everyone else has a bit of a question mark over them, or is a bit rubbish to be honest. You cannot carry too many teammates. They are probably lacking about two-three certified world class cricketers to make that bump up. Stokes could be if he improved his economies. If Ali has a few more series like the recent v SA - who knows?
subshakerz
International Coach
Pakistan's team i thought was best from 86 - 88, when they had the nucleus of the side of Mudassar Nazar, Shoaib Mohd, Javed Miandad, Saleem Malik, Saleem Yousf, a young Wasim and Imran and Qadir still at their bowling peaks. That side beat India and England away from home and drew with the WI home and away.
Pakistan sides in the 90s looked better on paper but lacked that grit and consistency.
Pakistan sides in the 90s looked better on paper but lacked that grit and consistency.
OverratedSanity
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Yeah agree. The mid 90s Pak team looked amazing on paper but had some bafflingly mediocre results. Zimbabwe beat them twice.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
yeah, they were quite hyped on their 99 tour(rightly so, Shoaib, Waqar, Wasim and Saqlain is one of the most balanced and lethal attacks ever on paper) to go with Anwar, Inzy, Youhana, Ijaz and a red hot Azhar Mahmood when he was still potentially great. We beat them 3-0 and young Abdul Razzaq was one of the few to actually give us a challenge
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flibbertyjibber
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How much was in the brown envelope that time.
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
Percy Chapman's England of the twenties was impressive. Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Tyldesley, Woolley, Rhodes, Larwood - Titch Freeman, Maurice Tate, Leyland and a young Wally Hammond arriving. Come to think of it, that seems as impressive as Hutton and May's 1950's teams.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Don't forget Hendren, Mead and Jardine who were also batsmen of real class.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
Literally every series from the 2009 Ashes on featured a minimum of one inept batting collapse.
Furball
Evil Scotsman
Strauss' England side would beat Vaughan's I reckon.
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
I'd take (2005 vintage) Flintoff, Jones, Harmison and Hoggard over Anderson, Broad and an assortment of either Finn, Tremlett, Plunkett, Bresnan, Onions - ''cannot quite make our minds up on the third-fourth seam option''. The Australian's Vaughan beat were much better than the Aussies Strauss beat.
Bell was better during the Strauss era and Strauss had better spin options in Swann and Panesar.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
I remember we had a lengthy discussion about this back in 2011.
iirc one or two of us put together a composite team. From memory, the only players from Vaughan's side who definitely got in were Flintoff, Simon Jones, and the younger version of Strauss. The picks from Strauss' team were Swann, Anderson, Broad, Prior and the older version of Bell. Which leaves KP from both sides, Cook = Trescothick, and Trott = Vaughan. Looking at it like that, I'd favour the later team too, although 2005 remains the greater achievement.
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
Yes but would Strauss's side beat Vaughan's? The change seam bowlers were very unsettled in Strauss's sides. 2003 - 2005 had a really settled pace quartet - real pace as well with Jones, Harmison and Flintoff and not your Anderson/Broad medium stuff. They beat South Africa away and arguably the greatest team there has ever been at home, a series in which Warne took 40 wickets! They also beat the Windies away who, fair enough were in free fall but they still had Lara and were not quite the disgrace we see today.
Strauss's beat Australian sides with players whose own mothers would struggle to remember their name. Michael Beer! Ben Hilfenhaus! Xavier Doherty!
Strauss's beat Australian sides with players whose own mothers would struggle to remember their name. Michael Beer! Ben Hilfenhaus! Xavier Doherty!
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wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Well I suppose we don't really know.
Thinking about it, I may have come to the same conclusion as you six years ago. For me, Flintoff and Jones were so special that they would have been decisive even though more of the 2011 vintage would have made a composite XI. And, like you, I was swayed by wins in SA and against that Aus side packed full of ATGs. We'll have to agree to differ on Harmison & Hoggard vs Broad and Anderson though.
S.Kennedy
International Vice-Captain
I wasn't really measuring Harmison and Hoggard against Anderson and Broad per se - the latter pair have clearly eclipsed them - but the 2005 seam attack verses the Strauss seam attack. Vaughan had a settled four who knew their places and abilities. Strauss had Anderson, Broad and take your pick? One series it might be Tremlett, the next Onions, Finn, Bresnan and so on - Sidebottom a bit also (although that might've been when Vaughan was technically still captain but knackered and Fred, Strauss and KP had brief stints, or early on in the Strauss era (the mind is foggy).
I'd definitely take Harmison over Finn and Tremlett, although Bresnan should've played more.
The ideal composite would surely be Jones, Flintoff, Anderson, Broad. We should have really seen that as a reality if Jones and Flintoff hadn't been knackered out of the game. The closest we got was the 2009 Ashes. Flintoff was being held together through drugs at that point. That was really Broad's break through series, the Oval. Anderson was probably a bit behind Broad at that point.
the big bambino
International Captain
What are the odds of that happening?
subshakerz
International Coach
Actually, that 99 team was not as hot as advertised. Shoaib was still raw, Waqar was past it, Wasim had lost his sting.
The 96 side which beat England had Aamer Sohail, Anwar, Inzi, Ijaz, Saleem Malik, Rashid/Moin, a still potent Waqar and Wasim and Muhstaq at his best. When the Pakistan side in the 90s clicked, they were magical to watch. That side also won a test in Australia in 95.
TheJediBrah
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This is why Pakistan were actually the greatest team of all time. Not only could they win against anyone. they also had the skill to convincingly lose against anyone if it was financially beneficial.
quincywagstaff
International Debutant
Yeah, it was a great side on paper and if not for the famous Langer/Gilchrist partnership, would've been 1-1 going into Perth where they had the pace attack to match Australia but they were demoralised post-Hobart and just limped out of the series.
Wouldn't really count Abdul Razzaq in terms of Tests; had all his success on that tour in ODIs. Only played one Test and was dropped. Mushtaq got mauled in Brisbane and he was past his best by that time anyway. For whatever reason Waqar Younis was a consistent disappointment in Australia.
Ijaz had a great record against Australia and scored a century that series but overall had some ordinary dismissals and was coming to end. Saeed Anwar played superbly that series but then was injured for the final Test.