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Thread: ***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    Seam is straight up and down, no movement until the ball pitched and then it decked away slightly. Where is the swing in 5:23? For me, that's simply the ball he bowls that maintains its line and has a chance at seaming - straight up and down, shine on the opposite side to negate the usual swing he would get with his action and decking away slightly when it pitches.

    You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?
    Mate, I think everyone is trying to be pretty respectful towards you. But if you think 4.15 in particular shows no movement until it pitches, I don't know what to say. I'm sure if you admit that does appear to be an outswinger (to RH) and you hadn't seen it/the Dukes make it more pronounced - therefore it wasn't particularly seen in NZ with the Kooka - we'd all move on.

  2. #152
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?
    ffs, how can you look at 4:14 and tell me that that's seam?

    We all saw it, the commentators and Trent himself talked about it after the match. He was actually too excited about it and was using it too much rather than using it as a surprise delivery.

  3. #153
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    Haha, yeah you're kinda undermining your own credibility if you're going to try and argue that 4:14 wasn't a genuine outswinger. That one rather obviously went a long way through the air.
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  4. #154
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    @SteveNZ

    Might have something to do with the fact that he hasn't even played a full season of matches for Auckland yet, he'd be lucky if he's even bowled 50 overs for Auckland in List A cricket, he's also from memory had one unbelievable performance against Wellington (6 or 7 wickets for about 40 runs, it's what got him in the NZ A team and then the NZ ODI team) - I don't think he's played a single domestic one dayer since his ODI debut.

    He's as quick as anyone not named Bennett, Milne, Wheeler, Mathieson or Kuggelign within the country and unlike any of those players, he's able to control line and length. He's also a hit the deck bowler, which isn't something we have in the current three seamers we have at test.

    Ryder as an opener. #5 is currently the test captains spot, with a coach who has said that he does not envisage the captain opening the batting for NZ in tests. #4 is locked down for Taylor. #6 is currently our all rounder who in his international performances to date has locked down that position. #7 is our best keeper batsman since Parore. Meaning you've got #1, 2 and 3. #3 is currently Williamson's to lose, despite Ryder being a better player, narrowing it to #1 and #2.

    Looking at the players most equipped to deal with express pace and moving deliveries, Ryder is easily better than Fulton, Williamson (nasty tendency to play inside out at deliveries and follow the ball), Guptill (can't turn over the strike to save himself, follows deliveries) and Rutherford (horrible tendency to throw away starts)

    So, is he good enough to play for NZ? Yes. Are there positions in the batting order we need to change/fix? Yes. Should he be given a chance at that spot, if the usual #5 is occupied by the captain and a coach reluctant to let him open, despite McCullum wanting to? Yes.


  5. #155
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    He's not managed to bowl it at all in New Zealand. I don't perceive him having bowled it in England either, even with the Duke, which I can tell you myself as a guy who only ever gets in-swing when I bowl, I can make that thing bend away simply by holding it straight up the seam.

    You can call it swing. I'm still going to say it's his natural arm movement across the batsman. He's never shown it in any of his club performances and any of the performances against Bangladesh or West indies.

  6. #156
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    He's not managed to bowl it at all in New Zealand. I don't perceive him having bowled it in England either, even with the Duke, which I can tell you myself as a guy who only ever gets in-swing when I bowl, I can make that thing bend away simply by holding it straight up the seam.

    You can call it swing. I'm still going to say it's his natural arm movement across the batsman. He's never shown it in any of his club performances and any of the performances against Bangladesh or West indies.
    JFC. If it bends in the air it's swing.. He had a conversation with the commentators about it after the match. Said it's something he's been working on. It was 100% deliberate. No **** he never showed it in club cricket, he hadn't developed it yet. You do realise that players have bowling coaches for a reason, right?

    And yes, he showed it against the West Indies on occasion. It was very inconsistent though and often went too wide of off stump or down the leg side.

  7. #157
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    Irregardless, we can agree to disagree on that point - the debate isn't whether or not Boult deserves his place in the side, the debate is the differences that the bowlers offer to the team, and McCleneghan offers something different to the swing attack that Boult, Southee and Wagner offer.

    And as an appeasement, Wagner also has the benefit of being able to move it both ways in non English conditions with the Kooka ball.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    Wagner also has the benefit of being able to move it both ways in non English conditions with the Kooka ball.
    Now I'm going to ask you to show me this…

    Look, I like McCleneghan too. He could be a good addition to the side. Just like Milne though, he needs to prove it in first class cricket.

    The one bowler who has proven himself in first class cricket this season is Bennett. He is also a hit-the-deck bowler. He's the front-runner.

  9. #159
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Blocky lives up to his screen name. In the face of an overwhelming barrage, he breaks open the forward defensive prod and plays it straight-batted back to the bowler. The bowler glares, does Blocky give a Joe Root-esque smile?
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  10. #160
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    I don't screen capture, but if you look at his five wickets in six balls, he hooped it both ways during that spell and even in the series against the Windies, he set Chanderpaul up by swinging them into him outside off then taking one away from off-stump to bowl him.

    The other thing about Wagner is he generally gets the hard wickets, he very rarely comes back to clean up the tail as he's not being used by McCullum there. Something like 34 of the 39 wickets he's taken have come from players batting in the Top 7. And about 25 of those 34 were in the Top 5. He's generally the guy in the attack that gets the top player of the opposing team out, he's done it to Trott, Pietersen, Smith, Chanderpaul, Bell, Gayle, Shakib-Al.

  11. #161
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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blocky View Post
    @SteveNZ

    Might have something to do with the fact that he hasn't even played a full season of matches for Auckland yet, he'd be lucky if he's even bowled 50 overs for Auckland in List A cricket, he's also from memory had one unbelievable performance against Wellington (6 or 7 wickets for about 40 runs, it's what got him in the NZ A team and then the NZ ODI team) - I don't think he's played a single domestic one dayer since his ODI debut.

    He's as quick as anyone not named Bennett, Milne, Wheeler, Mathieson or Kuggelign within the country and unlike any of those players, he's able to control line and length. He's also a hit the deck bowler, which isn't something we have in the current three seamers we have at test.

    Ryder as an opener. #5 is currently the test captains spot, with a coach who has said that he does not envisage the captain opening the batting for NZ in tests. #4 is locked down for Taylor. #6 is currently our all rounder who in his international performances to date has locked down that position. #7 is our best keeper batsman since Parore. Meaning you've got #1, 2 and 3. #3 is currently Williamson's to lose, despite Ryder being a better player, narrowing it to #1 and #2.

    Looking at the players most equipped to deal with express pace and moving deliveries, Ryder is easily better than Fulton, Williamson (nasty tendency to play inside out at deliveries and follow the ball), Guptill (can't turn over the strike to save himself, follows deliveries) and Rutherford (horrible tendency to throw away starts)

    So, is he good enough to play for NZ? Yes. Are there positions in the batting order we need to change/fix? Yes. Should he be given a chance at that spot, if the usual #5 is occupied by the captain and a coach reluctant to let him open, despite McCullum wanting to? Yes.
    Not sure what the point of the 'he hasn't bowled more than 50 overs', he hasn't played for Auckland since NZ' etc is. You said he was being used poorly by Auckland, and you were way off. Incidentally he took 5-for in the game before that 6 against Wellington.

    Look, I would love the bloke to play Test cricket but at the moment he's behind a couple of people based on the fact he hasn't put up a compelling case to be picked through FC cricket. You want him picked on ODI form, I'm here to tell you that's not a great guide. Plus his body needs to prove it is up to it.

    There is one guy scoring runs as an opener and it's Gup (and Papps, mind you). Jesse is not opening, and if he has opened at FC level it can't have been much. If he comes back in, he'll bat at 5, push Brendon down one and bowl a few overs. Anderson has made one score v the lowest two Test nations (bar us) so I doubt he's locked in.

    I find it funny that you've seen Wagner move it both ways, but not Boult. Anyway, it's impossible to take you seriously if you refuse to concede Boult was swinging it both ways based on that footage, which you asked to see as proof and were duly given. You and my ex girlfriend both have stubborn down to an art form, and I bet even I could convince her those deliveries are swinging out of the hand.
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  13. #163
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    Ffs anybody can get the ball to move both ways when it is reversing.

    Most of Wagners top order wickets are due to unforced errors from the batsman, ie. Anybody could have got those wickets. Sure there have been some great ones mixed in there, such as the kp inswinging yorker but I would classify him as a lucky bowler.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNZ View Post
    There is one guy scoring runs as an opener and it's Gup (and Papps, mind you).
    Look, great post and all, but you're not getting a like until you correct this.

  15. #165
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    @Steve

    So basically, you're saying he's been used excellently by Auckland on the basis of 16 wickets... eleven of which were taken in two innings? You also have to re-read what I said about ODI cricket, it's not a great form indicator for test cricket but it's a hell of a lot better than our current domestic competition. How many times is Guptill going to go back and absolutely hammer domestic bowling, get in the test squad and fail dismally? How many times did Andrew Penn run through domestic attacks and yet do absolutely nothing at the international level? Wagner is basically unplayable at first class level in NZ, yet he's had struggles getting to grips with tests and that's even after a reasonable career in a stronger South African domestic competition.

    McCleneghan hasn't been used well in domestic cricket, period. I think he'd be OK under McCullum, irregardless, I think he's much more proven than Southee, Sodhi and Bracewell were before they got selected to test cricket, Boult is really the only guy in recent memory I remember dominating at first class and then getting himself into the test squad. (edit: Wagner too.)

    Anderson will be locked in on the basis of his performance as a fourth seamer, he's racking up some pretty incredible statistics and again, as much as you don't count ODI form, his recent ODI performances will also ensure he plays the first test. So again, if you want Ryder to play, either McCullum opens or he opens, and we have the coach going on record to indicate McCullum will not be considered as an opener again.

    @Ohno

    Yeah, because getting 80% of your wickets against top order players generally either LBW, Bowled or Caught Behind indicates you're a guy who gets lucky wickets
    Last edited by Blocky; 06-01-2014 at 09:48 PM.



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