View Poll Results: Best 2nd ATG XI side?

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  • South Africa

    0 0%
  • West Indies

    7 33.33%
  • Australia

    10 47.62%
  • Pakistan

    0 0%
  • England

    4 19.05%
  • India

    0 0%
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Thread: Which country has the best 2nd ATG XI side?

  1. #31
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  2. #32
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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  3. #33
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Here is Vaas's record.

    Chaminda Vaas | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

    Hmmm, average wise the ratnayakes are closer to Ishant Sharma than they are to Vaas
    marc71178 and honestbharani like this.

  4. #34
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    might as well take Zoysa over those 2


  5. #35
    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Remember that both Ratnayake's played for a minnow team with hardly any bowling support. And on top of that they never had proper training or fitness regime and basically could not bowl to attacking fields due to circumstances. But Rumesh Ratnayake was slingy, pacy and swung it around and when he was in the mood was quite deadly. Ravi was completely different, as he was a tall bowler, high arm action, accurate, bit of seam and swing and supremely fit and bowled long spells. I would take 5 runs out of their averages to have a better idea of them. They have not lasted long as Vaas or had an ATG bowler bowling from the other end for them, but as a person who have seen them, I rate them above or similar to Vaas and there is absolute daylight between them and Zoysa. Additionally Ravi was quite a good batsman too, and Rumesh was a well known user of long handle.
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  6. #36
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Rat in the hire car

  7. #37
    State Captain harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himannv View Post
    Aubrey Faulkner would make my first XI as will players like Waugh, Border, Hunte, Garner, Morris and Compton. However, the simple answer to this question is probably Australia.
    I have never seen the value in having Faulkner instead of Herbie Taylor in the first XI. There already is fifth bowling support in the form of Kallis, and it's not like Faulkner was anything but an ordinary bowler, despite the odd 5-fer. Average of 26 in that age would be an equivalent of 35 today. Taylor is so much better as a batsman.

    I always have Ponting, Chappell and Miller there, so no Waugh and Border for me.
    It's a toss-up between Compton and Pietersen for me again, very close. Depends on the day
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    A couple of teams Iíve come up with, excluding those selected by CW in the First XIs. Not that I necessarily agreed with each CW team, but using them as a base for exclusion. Firstly, Australia:

    Matthew Hayden
    Bob Simpson
    Ricky Ponting
    Neil Harvey
    Stan McCabe
    Steve Waugh
    Ian Healy
    Alan Davidson
    Ray Lindwall
    Clarrie Grimmett
    Fred Spofforth
    An alternative pace bowler (For Spofforth) could be Bill Johnson

  9. #39
    Hall of Fame Member honestbharani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinB View Post
    An alternative pace bowler (For Spofforth) could be Bill Johnson

    Yeah he is awesome. esp. given that he is in my Mystery Draft team..
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    In the end, I think it's so utterly, incomprehensibly boring. There is so much context behind each innings of cricket that dissecting statistics into these small samples is just worthless. No-one has ever been faced with the same situation in which they come out to bat as someone else. Ever.
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  10. #40
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    I have never seen the value in having Faulkner instead of Herbie Taylor in the first XI. There already is fifth bowling support in the form of Kallis, and it's not like Faulkner was anything but an ordinary bowler, despite the odd 5-fer. Average of 26 in that age would be an equivalent of 35 today. Taylor is so much better as a batsman.

    I always have Ponting, Chappell and Miller there, so no Waugh and Border for me.
    It's a toss-up between Compton and Pietersen for me again, very close. Depends on the day
    I'd rather take the opinion of Jack Hobbs who batted against Faulkner, and had this to say after the first Test of his 1910 tour;

    South Africa put on 345 in their second innings. GA Faulkner contributing 123; and we could only reply with 234. This was very disappointing after our fine start. But South Africa had some great bowlers - Faulkner and Vogler were wonderful, while Schwarz with his googlies, and white with his mixture of googlies and leg breaks, were first rate.

    I think that at his time Faulkner was the greatest all-round player in the world. He always got runs, and used to bowl right through the innings.

    'My Cricket Memories' by Jack Hobbs (1924)

    1st Test: South Africa v England at Johannesburg, Jan 1-5, 1910 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
    Faulkner, White and Vogler all became googlie experts; Faulkner was the best, and was able to make the ball turn to a pretty good extent either way.

    'My Cricket Memories' by Jack Hobbs(1924)
    Faulkner will go down to history as South Africa's greatest allrounder. He was a really splendid bowler googly bowler, keeping an immaculate length, much faster than Grimmett, and perhaps the best of the googly bowlers, with the exception of Arthur Mailey.

    Sir Jack Hobbs. My Life Story (1935)
    Faulkner dismissed Hobbs 4 times - twice in 1910 and twice in 1913 when South Africa toured England. A bowler doesn't get to dismiss Jack Hobbs, 'bowl right through an innings', and be described as 'wonderful', and 'really splendid' without being significantly more than just 'ordinary'.

    Faulkner and Kallis should be in any ATG South African XI.
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2013 at 04:05 PM.
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  11. #41
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Also, Hammond had this to say;

    It has often been stated that the South African touring side of 1907 had more good bowlers in it than any touring side from any other country has ever had. Kotze, Schwarz, Vogler, Faulkner, and White were all in the very top class, and there were four others not far behind them. RE Foster, England's captain at that time, placed Vogler as 'the best bowler in the world'; in a single hour, during one Test, he took 9 wickets for 42 runs, the greatest batsman in England 'scratching about like a lot of hens'.

    'Cricket My World' by Walter Hammond (1947)

  12. #42
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    these quotes are excellent

  13. #43
    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    and yeah, for most people an average of 26 in that era might be equivalent to much higher, but when you're playing against the likes of Jack Hobbs I think that negates the impact of the era tbh.

  14. #44
    State Captain harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I'd rather take the opinion of Jack Hobbs who batted against Faulkner, and had this to say after the first Test of his 1910 tour;

    Faulkner dismissed Hobbs 4 times - twice in 1910 and twice in 1913 when South Africa toured England. A bowler doesn't get to dismiss Jack Hobbs, 'bowl right through an innings', and be described as 'wonderful', and 'really splendid' without being significantly more than just 'ordinary'.

    Faulkner and Kallis should be in any ATG South African XI.
    Good points. But for the period of 1906-14, when Faulkner played, his record is not that impressive. There were no great spinners in that era either, Blythe being the most visible, while Rhodes was on his opening-the-batting break. Perhaps that is why Hobbs had a slightly rosier picture of him. Even Vogler's record is quite a bit better than Faulkner's and we never consider him in any way. Faulkner would be a great addition to the 1st side if there was no all-rounder there to begin with, but that's not the case, and having Herbie Taylor at 6 would enhance that side more than having Faulkner at 6, as Herbie was the superior bat by quite a margin.

  15. #45
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Good points. But for the period of 1906-14, when Faulkner played, his record is not that impressive. There were no great spinners in that era either, Blythe being the most visible, while Rhodes was on his opening-the-batting break. Perhaps that is why Hobbs had a slightly rosier picture of him. Even Vogler's record is quite a bit better than Faulkner's and we never consider him in any way. Faulkner would be a great addition to the 1st side if there was no all-rounder there to begin with, but that's not the case, and having Herbie Taylor at 6 would enhance that side more than having Faulkner at 6, as Herbie was the superior bat by quite a margin.
    used to bowl right through the innings
    = stamina

    was able to make the ball turn to a pretty good extent either way
    = skillful

    really splendid bowler googly bowler
    = good technique

    keeping an immaculate length
    = good technique

    The above quotes are absolutes, not relative comparisons. If a bowler picks up regular wickets in the Test match arena, and has those three attributes then he is, by definition, a truly good bowler.

    Also, Hobbs had no problem judging Faulkner against Grimmett and Mailey (because he faced all three bowlers).If a leg spinner is mentioned in the same sentence as these two great bowlers, then by implication, he must also be great.

    much faster than Grimmett, and perhaps the best of the googly bowlers, with the exception of Arthur Mailey.
    Last edited by watson; 09-09-2013 at 09:53 PM.

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