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Thread: Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

  1. #166
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    So if he only played these 33 Tests you would have no problem with him? So is the alltime team based on a player at his best or what he did over his whole career?

    I always think a little of both, so we could choose the Sobers who played for those eight years which is a fair period.

    Personally I would pick players at their peak for say two-three years. To beat another all time team you need the bowlers so players like Thommo and Jack Iverson would be in my team, they may both win you one Test each in a five Test series.
    If people are picking players on short-lived peaks then the composition of most all-time sides would change. They'd regularly feature guys like Steyn, Waqar and Ponting. That Sobers suddenly gets the change in definition seems convenient.

    Moreover, 33 Tests when you'ved played 93 isn't a good sample - especially when the rest of your career is so contrasting, as then it becomes misleading. The only reason 33 Tests would be acceptable to me is if he played 33 tests overall and in his era that was a reasonable/a lot to play.

    Sobers' problem is that the rest of the 60 Tests were atrocious; that overall (combined with his peak) his figures are average at best; and that even if you were to consider his peak the figures aren't even impressive.
    Last edited by Ikki; 11-02-2013 at 07:42 AM.
    ★★★★★

  2. #167
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    Kallis in hte 8th XI and Shaun Pollock not being considered good enough for the 9th XI. Meanwhile Rahul Dravid in the 6th XI, and Andrew Flintoff in the 9th XI. If he was a CW poster, he'd be on my ignore list.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    If people are picking players on short-lived peaks then the composition of most all-time sides would change. They'd regularly feature guys like Steyn, Waqar and Ponting. That Sobers suddenly gets the change in definition seems convenient.

    Moreover, 33 Tests when you'ved played 93 isn't a good sample - especially when the rest of your career is so contrasting, as then it becomes misleading. The only reason 33 Tests would be acceptable to me is if he played 33 tests overall and in his era that was a reasonable/a lot to play.

    Sobers' problem is that the rest of the 60 Tests were atrocious; that overall (combined with his peak) his figures are average at best; and that even if you were to consider his peak the figures aren't even impressive.
    quite awta.
    Last edited by smalishah84; 11-02-2013 at 12:48 PM.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  3. #168
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    I think its impossible to justify saying that Sobers was anything more than an average, at best pretty decent support bowler. Its absolutely crazy to have him as a third seamer in an ATG lineup.

  4. #169
    State Vice-Captain MrPrez's Avatar
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    Yeah agree. We could always cherrypick and say that at one point Kallis was an opening bowler. I'm sure he had stages of his career where he averaged well under 30 too. You take a player for their overall quality, not for their peak, nor for their worst.
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  5. #170
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    Kallis in hte 8th XI and Shaun Pollock not being considered good enough for the 9th XI. Meanwhile Rahul Dravid in the 6th XI, and Andrew Flintoff in the 9th XI. If he was a CW poster, he'd be on my ignore list.
    The book was written a number of years ago, which explains Kallis. In the revised edition he explains that he'd included Flintoff initially on the basis of the 2005 Ashes, but that Flintoff hadn't sustained that level.

  6. #171
    Cricket Web Staff Member archie mac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    If people are picking players on short-lived peaks then the composition of most all-time sides would change. They'd regularly feature guys like Steyn, Waqar and Ponting. That Sobers suddenly gets the change in definition seems convenient.

    Moreover, 33 Tests when you'ved played 93 isn't a good sample - especially when the rest of your career is so contrasting, as then it becomes misleading. The only reason 33 Tests would be acceptable to me is if he played 33 tests overall and in his era that was a reasonable/a lot to play.

    Sobers' problem is that the rest of the 60 Tests were atrocious; that overall (combined with his peak) his figures are average at best; and that even if you were to consider his peak the figures aren't even impressive.
    Well I don't agree. So if he would have retired before his bowling dropped off you would have no issues?

    Must be just me so I will stop arguing
    You know it makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    Well I don't agree. So if he would have retired before his bowling dropped off you would have no issues?

    Must be just me so I will stop arguing
    No one knows... maybe we would, but you just cant be sure, which is exactly why you judge a player by how long he was actually great... which is why imo Sobers, Thomson, Bond, Philander (yet) are not ATG bowlers.

  8. #173
    International Captain ankitj's Avatar
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    I like that Geoff Armstrong puts Graeme Pollock in his first xi.

  9. #174
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie mac View Post
    Well I don't agree. So if he would have retired before his bowling dropped off you would have no issues?

    Must be just me so I will stop arguing
    It depends, maybe I would have. When the majority of your bowling career can only be classified as "poor" then I am not too gung-ho about letting all-time great batsmen face you.

  10. #175
    International 12th Man Slifer's Avatar
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    I know we've had our 'issues' in the past Ikki but I'm curious as to y u rate Viv Richards so highly when u r perfectly justified rating G Chappell higher ???
    Cause Slifer said so.........!!!!

  11. #176
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Because besides the very last part of Richards' career I wasn't around to witness their careers myself. When I judge players in that regard it usually means I will look at their careers statistically as well as the contemporary esteem they're held in.

    I am not sure Richards is better than Chappell - statistically, I'd give the nod to Greg, although it is close - but Richards gets a lot more love from his contemporaries. I tie-break it that way. Plus, Richards' SR is usually not factored when people discuss him although it seems the estimations put him around 67. This is a fantastic SR for a batsman that averages 50 and in comparison to his contemporaries he is like Sehwag...except with no glaring deficiency.

    The reason I don't do the same for Sobers (as an all-rounder) is because I cannot logically persuade myself that his bowling on the whole was anything better than average (and even then I'm being generous).
    Last edited by Ikki; 14-02-2013 at 12:36 AM.

  12. #177
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Because besides the very last part of Richards' career I wasn't around to witness their careers myself. When I judge players in that regard it usually means I will look at their careers statistically as well as the contemporary esteem they're held in.

    I am not sure Richards is better than Chappell - statistically, I'd give the nod to Greg, although it is close - but Richards gets a lot more love from his contemporaries. I tie-break it that way. Plus, Richards' SR is usually not factored when people discuss him although it seems the estimations put him around 67. This is a fantastic SR for a batsman that averages 50 and in comparison to his contemporaries he is like Sehwag...except with no glaring deficiency.

    The reason I don't do the same for Sobers (as an all-rounder) is because I cannot logically persuade myself that his bowling on the whole was anything better than average (and even then I'm being generous).
    But 60s are comparatively weaker in bowling compared to the decade before or after. And Sobers was a regular top 10 (top 5 even) bowler at that time. He is better than average at the time he was playing. Sobers actually bowled roughly 2000 more balls while playing less than 80 tests compared to Kallis. He was actually a proper bowler in the side. His record may not be brilliant, but he makes his team on his bowling alone. Hell there were times in mid 60s when he would make a world XI on his bowling alone. That is not something that can be completely dismissed.

  13. #178
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    neil johnson could also make the Zimbos on batting or bowling alone

  14. #179
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    comparing sobers and kallis as bowlers is worse than comparing botham and s.pollock as batsmen
    Last edited by sobers no:1; 15-02-2013 at 01:32 AM.

  15. #180
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    There's no such word as 'worser'.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

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