Has Tim Southee "arrived"?

[Spark]

When Southee was bowling his spell to Kohli in the first test that he was the 3rd best bowler in the world. When he's on song i stand by my word.

Comparing peaks? No way. In fact he probably moves down because Anderson's best spells are superlative.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah, not even in the top-5 quicks worldwide for mine.

 

[Spark]

Actually we all seem to be forgetting Junaid Khan, where would he slot in?

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Comparing peaks? No way. In fact he probably moves down because Anderson's best spells are superlative.

3rd equal with Harris then and I'm comparing when bowlers are bowling well rather than just peaks btw. As of late Timmeh has been bowling beautifully spells more regularly than everyone else barring Harris. Hasn't gone missing as much as Steyn or Philander, or had a bad series like Anderson.

 

[Dan]

Yeah that's true. Still, Broad would walk into every attack in the world (including NZ's) except SA's (unless some brave soul wanted to pick him over Morkel) and maybe ours (I probably would).

Southee... I'm not so sure you can say the same, for the reasons you explain. He's more of a new ball bowler and those are slightly easier to find.

I'd take Broad ahead of Morkel, tbh.

 

[Spark]

3rd equal with Harris then and I'm comparing when bowlers are bowling well rather than just peaks btw. As of late Timmeh has been bowling beautifully spells more regularly than everyone else barring Harris. Hasn't gone missing as much as Steyn or Philander, or had a bad series like Anderson.

Well you're making a totally different argument, then. You can't just say "well, I'm going to talk about this bowler only when they bowl well and the rest more generally" - unless you want to come up with facetious statements like "Southee bowling well is a good bowler". I mean, if you want to only talk a bowler during one of their best spells then that's sort of a meaningless statement because then the whole question just comes down to who happens to be bowling a really good spell at any given moment in time.

At their best all of Steyn, Philander, Johnson, Broad, Anderson are definitely better than Southee's best. I'd say Harris too and even Morkel comes into the equation.

As bowlers, more generally, Southee is currently a better bowler than two or three of those names at the absolute most.

I'd take Broad ahead of Morkel, tbh.

So would I, actually.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Umm no, when on song never equalled peak or best in the first place. I'm comparing how good Southee is when he's bowling well to other bowlers when they are bowling well , and then adjusting a bit depending on how often bowlers bowl well (which yeah does change it, was a bit of an after though).

For the record my ranking would be
Steyn
MJ
Harris/Southee
Philander
Everyone else

 

[Spark]

Nah you cannot make that argument and then say that Southee > Broad. Broad being nonsensically destructive when on song is basically his defining feature as a bowler, and Philander still has a sub-20 average, how on earth does he slip to 5th?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Couldn't put Southee equal with Harris nor ahead of Philander, but would certainly pick him (and probably Boult) ahead of any bowler from England. I really can't believe that Anderson is still rated so highly - the guy averages 36 away from England. Give him a Kookaburra and he's not much better than Ishant

 

[Spark]

Couldn't put Southee equal with Harris nor ahead of Philander, but would certainly pick him (and probably Boult) ahead of any bowler from England. I really can't believe that Anderson is still rated so highly - the guy averages 36 away from England. Give him a Kookaburra and he's not much better than Ishant

Uhhhhhhhhh... did you watch, like, any of his away series between 2010-2013?

The bloke was a massive part of the reason England won in India, and in recent years, of all overseas seamers in Australia only Steyn put in a better performance than his in 2010-11 IMO.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

It was an exaggeration - apologies for the slight troll. Yeah I followed the India and Ashes series. In comparison though, Southee averages 27 away from NZ and 21.7 in Asia

 

[Flem274*]

Bit torn on this. Gut reaction puts Southee between 5th to 7th of bowlers not including Junaid since I've seen sod all of him, but Bahnz doesn't hand out optimistic posts lightly.

I think where Southee loses out is where the likes of Patto and Boult lose out - he's a lot younger than many of the others and despite having the obvious talent to be one of the very best in the world (as opposed to merely world class/top 10 as he is right now) he doesn't have the proof under his belt his older rivals have because the older bowlers have played for so long. Southee has some world class performances under his belt all over the world - Australia, West Indies, UAE and South Africa are the only places he hasn't toured since his coming of age - and he's only 25 so he has plenty of time to make his name but while 60 wickets at 23 point whatever is superb he needs to sustain it. The lack of long term performance is why I rank Harris and Johnson lower than others perhaps would.

If you just want to look at performances in the last X months then Southee is right up there though. Right up there.

 

[Spark]

Harris has played more Tests than Philander tbf.

 

[sambha]

I was not suprised when Allan Donald said that he had the potential to be the worlds best swing bowler.
He needs to keep that consistency.With New Zealand bowling attack becoming stronger with the addition of Boult,Wagner,Neesham,Andreson.....this will only benefit him

 

[Bahnz]

So does Broad, though (perhaps maybe less consistently on the cricket brain bit). That's my point. What Southee gives me over Broad is more or less a better outswinger/inswinger whilst Broad over Southee gives me aggression, variety, bounce, more seam movement and just flat-out matchwinning ability.

I disagree with this. Even setting aside the huge contribution he made to New Zealand's 3 test wins this summer, Southee has produced a lot of incredible performances in the last 18 months. He ran through India to grab 7/50 at Bangalore (should've been 8/40 if Guptill hadn't dropped a sitter at second slip). He carved up Sri Lanka's top order on the flattest of tracks. He near single-handedly reduced England from 2/160 to 213 all out at Lords.

 

[Spark]

Broad is just silly with it though. One moment you're fine, an hour later you've basically lost the Test and trying to work out wtf just happened. Happens at least once a series too.

 

[Ruckus]

Reckon Broad is one the most overrated bowlers ever. Yeah he puts in a pretty special performance once in a while, but who cares, across the board he isn't consistently that good. In his 8 year career he hasn't even had two consecutive years where he has averaged under 30.

 

[the big bambino]

Used to think that but the last 2 series have proven he's class.

 

[Ruckus]

don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a bad bowler, but he isn't a top tier bowler like he is made out to be a lot of the time. I'd put him around the Siddle/Morkel etc. level of being good bowlers, but nothing particularly special.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Southee's record since the SRL series

47 wickets at 24.68 apiece, with a strike rate of 52.50 and an economy rate of 2.81. Yup I'd say he's arrived. The next question is how good will he become.

Can be as good as anyone NZ have had bar Hadlee as long as he stays fit and focussed. The guy is a quality bowler and his partnership with Boult is one of the best new ball pairs around at the moment. The fact you can comfortably mention them alongside the Aussie, SA and England new ball pairs says it all.

Not only is Southee a quality bowler he remains a dangerous lower order slogger too which will help if/when he loses form as extra runs might keep his place a bit longer.