The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

why is Davidson not selected ahead of some of the other blokes?

His average is outstanding

His average is outstanding, but his strike rate is pretty poor in comparison to Lillee and McGrath (Davidson is about 62, while Lillee and McGrath are about 52).

 

[smash84]

but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG

 

[Red]

but how much does a SR of 10 balls per wicket really matter considering that you get much cheaper wickets with Davidson than you get with Lillee and even cheaper than McG

I guess it's more to do with the fact that if you expect him to take 3, 4 or 5 wickets per innings, it's going to take him between 5 to 9 more overs of bowling to do that than it will Lillee or McGrath. The quicker you bowl a team out, the more chance of winning a test.

 

[NUFAN]

I'm sure that the 'ordinary attacks' helped Waugh. But by the same token an average of 25 over 30 innings indicates that Walters had technical deficiencies under English conditions. That is, I don't think that he coped well with 'side-ways movement' and lower bounce.

After all, not every Australian batsman from the 1960s-70s ended up with an average of only 25 after playing in England.

Yeah for sure. I had said originally that Walters was poor vs. England, but just wanted to explain one of the reasons why the gap was so large is that Waugh didn't have to face really good attacks.

Waugh's record against West Indies, South Africa and Pakistan would have meant the most as they had the best attacks in general throughout his career.

 

[watson]

I have no hesitation in including both O'Reilly and Warne in my Australian XI as I have Miller as the third quick, and he is able to bat in the middle order. Miller is a genuine opening bowler. McGrath, Lillee, Miller, O'Reilly and Warne is a great attack. I do feel strongly that ATG teams need five legitimate bowlers, or at very least a 5th option that is very good. I'd also love to include a left armer, but just can't squeeze Davidson in, as I think McGrath is a slightly better bowler than him (as is Lindwall). So variety only comes in to consideration when two players are virtually of the same in ability for me.

You're right, and on day 4 and 5, the thought of Warne and O'Reilly bowling together is something extraordinary to contemplate. The aggression, pressure and sledging/gamesmanship would be relentless.

I agree. The extraordinary quality of Warne and O'Reilly make them (almost) a must - especially with Miller in the team. Three top class quicks should be enough to breakdown most batting orders;

01. Simpson
02. Lawry
03. Bradman*
04. G. Chappell
05. Miller
06. Border
07. Gilchrist+
08. Warne
09. Lillee
10. O'Reilly
11. McGrath

Davidson-Lillee-McGrath are interchangeable as I can't split them.

Changed my England team a little bit - again.

01. Hobbs
02. Hutton
03. Hammond
04. Compton
05. Leyland
06. May*
07. Knott+
08. Larwood
09. Snow
10. Trueman
11. Barnes

Leyland makes the team by virtue of being England's greatest left-hander.

Compton replaces Barrington as the middle-order needs an attacking strokemaker. A combo of Barrington-Leyland-May might get bogged down.

 

[Jager]

Australia
1. Victor Trumper
2. Bob Simpson
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

12. Ray Lindwall

 

[Red]

Australia
1. Victor Trumper
2. Bob Simpson
3. Don Bradman
4. Greg Chappell
5. Keith Miller*
6. Allan Border
7. Don Tallon †
8. Alan Davidson
9. Shane Warne
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

12. Ray Lindwall

Davo over Lillee?

 

[watson]

Davo over Lillee?

If you make the decision that a left-armer is essential to the bowling attack because of the variety it brings - especially if you have the greatest, or second greatest left-arm quick of all time available for selection - then the question becomes McGrath V Lillee? Not Davidson V Lillee or McGrath?

Also, Davidson's batting skills become more important since Jager has Tallon as his keeper. Losing Gilchrist makes the tail look fragile.

 

[ankitj]

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

 

[smash84]

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

pretty fantastic side this one

 

[watson]

Aus XI:

Bob Simpson | Bill Ponsford | Don Bradman * | Ricky Ponting | Greg Chappell | Adam Gilchrist + | Keith Miller | Allan Davidson | Shane Warne | Dennis Lillee | Glenn McGrath

It's little harsh to leave out Bill O'Reilly, but not sure if we really need two spinners in Aus XI.

Or conversely, do we really need four fast bowlers in an Aussie ATG XI?

Lillee-McGrath-Miller
Lillee-Davidson-Miller
McGrath-Davidson-Miller

One of the above combo's should be plenty.

 

[ankitj]

ENG XI:

Jack Hobbs | Len Hutton* | Wally Hammond | Dennis Compton | Ken Barrington | Ian Botham | Les Ames + | Fred Trueman | Jim Laker | George Lohmann | Sydney Barnes

That opening combo is one to die for...

 

[Jager]

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

England
1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Wally Hammond
4. Peter May
5. Denis Compton
6. Douglas Jardine
7. Alan Knott
8. Harold Larwood
9. Hedley Verity
10. Sydney Barnes
11. Fred Trueman

 

[ankitj]

No Ian Botham?

 

[Red]

Gilchrist making it into an Australian AT XI upsets me somewhat - seems a keeper's batting is now well and truly more important than their glovework these days

I agree with you about the importance of keeping, but I disagree if you're inferring that Gilchrist wasn't a good keeper. Keeping to Warne would have been the most difficult wicket-keeping task in the last 30-40 years, and Gilly did a very clean and efficient job of it.

Gilchrist did drop some easy-ish catches late in his career, and to his credit he retired quickly, as he knew he was declining.

I think there is a certain element of golden nostalgia associated with guys like Tallon, who were probably very very good, but I can't think of any reason why they were any more effective as keepers than Gilchrist, other than their peers saying they were good.

 

[Dan]

If we were comparing Andy Flower, for example, to Don Tallon that it's the latter every time. However, Gilchrist's wicketkeeping was fantastic, it just kept getting overshadowed by his batting. As a package, Gilchrist > Tallon.

Australia:
Bob Simpson
Victor Trumper
Sir Donald Bradman
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
(Alan Davidson)

England
Sir Leonard Hutton
Sir Jack Hobbs
Ken Barrington
Denis Compton
Wally Hammond
Kevin Pietersen
Sir Ian Botham
Allan Knott
Harold Larwood
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes
(Jim Laker)

South Africa
Bruce Mitchell
Barry Richards
Dudley Nourse
Graeme Pollock
Jacques Kallis
Aubrey Faulkner
Dennis Lindsay
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald
(Hugh Tayfield)

India
Sunil Gavaskar
Vijay Merchant
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
N Kapil Dev
Farokh Engineer
Anil Kumble
Mohammad Nissar
Erapalli Prassana
Bishan Bedi
(Javagal Srinath)

Pakistan
Hanif Mohammad
Majid Khan
Zaheer Abbas
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Imran Khan
Rashid Latif
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Abdul Qadir
Waqar Younis
(Saeed Anwar)

West Indies
Gordon Greenidge
Sir Frank Worrell
George Headley
Brian Lara
Sir Vivian Richards
Sir Garfield Sobers
Sir Clyde Walcott
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Curtley Ambrose
(Lance Gibbs)

 

[Red]

Australia:
Bob Simpson
Victor Trumper
Sir Donald Bradman
Ian Chappell
Keith Miller
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath
(Alan Davidson)

I like this, but I'm not sure if you meant Greg...

If you didn't (or did) I like it, a lot...

 

[Dan]

I like this, but I'm not sure if you meant Greg...

If you didn't (or did) I like it, a lot...

Meant Greg. Went back and filled in first names later, and Chappelli is the first that springs to mind when I read the last name.

 

[Jager]

Dan I think you place too much importance on the batting skills of wicketkeepers, at least for my liking. Gilchrist, Walcott, Lindsay and Latif are very much outclassed with the gloves by the likes of Healy, Dujon, Waite and Bari - it's all preference though, of course

 

[Dan]

Dan I think you place too much importance on the batting skills of wicketkeepers, at least for my liking. Gilchrist, Walcott, Lindsay and Latif are very much outclassed with the gloves by the likes of Healy, Dujon, Waite and Bari - it's all preference though, of course

Gilchrist's wicketkeeping was of an extremely high standard, and his batting far outweighs Healey's slight advantage with the gloves; you lose next to nothing behind the stumps, but nigh on 30 runs with the bat.

Walcott is far too good to leave out, and kept with distinction to Ramadhin and Valentine. Ideally I'd play him as a specialist bat and pick Dujon, but the other middle order options are far too strong.

Waite was extremely close to pushing Lindsay out, but once again I didn't feel like there was a huge difference in their wicketkeeping.

And I originally did pick Bari, however I wanted to play Fazal and Akram isn't a Test number 7. If I played MoYo in place of Fazal, I would select Bari and bat him at 10.