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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2956
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big bambino View Post
    Big Baby: Hey AN my boy was looking over my shoulder as I was reading your post. He told me to give you the angry smiley.
    And to think that I once truly thought you were a Cyberman.
    Last edited by watson; 07-04-2014 at 12:22 AM.
    Sunil Gavaskar – Len Hutton – Don Bradman – Garry Sobers – Viv Richards – Keith Miller – Imran Khan – Jock Cameron – Richie Benaud – Malcolm Marshall – Bill O’Reilly

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    Quote Originally Posted by the big bambino View Post
    Look bud: You can't even comprehend that I was retelling Hutton's opinion not offering my own. You dishonestly tried to pass your assessment of Amre as his own.
    You are assuming too much. There has been nothing dishonest in what I've posted- if you notice,I am a bit reticient to talk about my personal cricketing experience and with good reason. What I was trying to be reticient about, is hinting at the incident being a product of my own observations *and* conversations with Amre. He was my team-mate at one point.


    Its a bit rich of you to criticise too mightily about data sets when you have NONE to back your opinion of Amre.
    The folly of this statement is something that is lost on you. I will try with an analogy: You are the guy, who shows up to the gun-fight with a plastic knife ( as is the status of your extremely limited data-set), then yells and screams at the guy who doesnt have a gun either, when he points out that you are stuffed.

    Do you get it yet ? I don't need a data set. My comments are not dependent on a data-set. Your data-set is flawed because it has no sample space merit whatsoever. Is it clear yet ?

    I'm not limiting the discussion to any form of cricket. You did that by inviting us to consider Nadkarni's ER at test and FC level. So your second para isn't in response to any point I made. Its just another red herring. To humour you lets look at his overall record anyway. Amre's ODI SR is mediocre as is his ListA record. FC record nothing out of the ordinary for Indian conditions. He didn't play t20. His test record shows he couldn't compete at higher standards. You got anything else? How good was he at French cricket? Entertain us with an anecdote about that...

    Loved /your para 3. Yeah he could've failed for any reason. Might have been a bed wetter: Who knows. BUT - you said it was down to the fact he couldn't play pace bowling: Remember? So I've just held you accountable to that assessment.

    The logical absurdity was comparing Amre to Kallis in the first place and I note it was you who made the comparison.
    There is no logical absurdity in comparing Amre and kallis to parameters that are identical to the data-set you are using for Amre.
    Kallis after similar experience had under 30 average. So its a demonstration that your data-set, as I've been saying form the get-go, is trash. it is so because you simply do not understand the mathematical and logical absurdities of reading too much into a limited sample space.

  4. #2959
    Dan
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    Global Moderator / Cricket Web Staff Member Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Alright, this discussion is going around and around in circles. Let's drop it, hey?
    Maybe this was a little too subtle.

    We get it, you disagree. Enough is enough.

    8 points for the next one to make a post on Amre's stats or how they're unimportant, how they relate to a young Jacques Kallis, or how they relate to something Len Hutton said a ****ton of years ago. This entire debate is completely absurd.

    Oh, and if you find something else to argue about in such a personal manner, you'll be getting 5 points at the least.

    If my intention still isn't clear, end it.
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    I hate s smith.
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    I give out points for style of which Steve(n) Smith has none.


  5. #2960
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    Simpson
    Barlow
    Kallis
    Sobers
    Faulkner
    Miller
    Gilchrist+
    Botham
    Procter
    Imran
    Hadlee

    A little all rounders XI. Would not be able to take my eyes off the batting from Miller-Procter. Doubt there'd ever be a dull moment with the bowling either.
    Last edited by Coronis; 08-04-2014 at 04:58 AM.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

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    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    A little all rounders XI. Would not be able to take my eyes off the batting from Miller-Procter. Doubt there'd ever be a dull moment with the bowling either.
    Single skills XI- batsmen with no test wickets, bowlers with a batting avg under 10, keeper not a renowned batsman

    Herb Sutcliffe
    Gordon Greenidge
    Clem Hill
    Brian Lara
    Peter May
    Mohammed Yousuf
    Bob Taylor +
    Glenn McGrath
    Courtney Walsh
    Bishen Bedi
    Neil Adcock

  7. #2962
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Single skills XI- batsmen with no test wickets, bowlers with a batting avg under 10, keeper not a renowned batsman

    Herb Sutcliffe
    Gordon Greenidge
    Clem Hill
    Brian Lara
    Peter May
    Mohammed Yousuf
    Bob Taylor +
    Glenn McGrath
    Courtney Walsh
    Bishen Bedi
    Neil Adcock
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Gordon Greenidge
    George Headley
    Brian Lara
    Kumar Sangakkara
    Rohan Kanhai
    Don Tallon +
    Glenn McGrath
    Subhash Gupte
    Courtney Walsh
    Neil Adcock
    If you were that old, and that kind, and the very last of your kind, you couldn't just stand back and watch children cry.

  8. #2963
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Simpson
    Barlow
    Kallis
    Sobers
    Faulkner
    Miller
    Gilchrist+
    Botham
    Procter
    Imran
    Hadlee

    A little all rounders XI. Would not be able to take my eyes off the batting from Miller-Procter. Doubt there'd ever be a dull moment with the bowling either.
    W G Grace
    Charlie Macartney
    Jacques Kallis
    Garry Sobers
    Aubrey Faulkner
    Keith Miller
    Adam Gilchrist
    Imran Khan
    Richard Hadlee
    Richie Benaud
    Alan Davidson

    Feel awful at leaving out Botham, Procter, and Kapil. But I think Davidson was a better pace bowler than the three of them, plus there seemed to be a need for a quality spin bowler. So....

  9. #2964
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Single skills XI- batsmen with no test wickets, bowlers with a batting avg under 10, keeper not a renowned batsman

    Herb Sutcliffe
    Gordon Greenidge
    Clem Hill
    Brian Lara
    Peter May
    Mohammed Yousuf
    Bob Taylor +
    Glenn McGrath
    Courtney Walsh
    Bishen Bedi
    Neil Adcock
    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post
    Herbert Sutcliffe
    Gordon Greenidge
    George Headley
    Brian Lara
    Kumar Sangakkara
    Rohan Kanhai
    Don Tallon +
    Glenn McGrath
    Subhash Gupte
    Courtney Walsh
    Neil Adcock
    You know a teams batting is awful when McGrath is at 8 and Walsh isn't at No. 11

    Great idea guys, good teams too, edge to Harsh though.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  10. #2965
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Looking at the all rounder and single skills XI's, it made me wonder about what goes into most persons criteria for an ATG XI.

    Personally I go for a dominant No. 3, the rest of the middle order generally also attacking with one batsman who can anchor if required. A wicket keeper who can handle a bat and a batting and bowling all rounder and preferably three but at least two great (with one top tier) slip fielders. For the bowling attack, at least one of the bowlers must be genuine express, while a swing bowler and a metronome are the ideal compliments, though not always possible. The tail should also be handy while (serviceable) batting down to No. 10.

    That combination should result in a pretty well balanced (and over thought) team.
    Last edited by kyear2; 08-04-2014 at 08:20 PM.

  11. #2966
    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Looking at the all rounder and single skills XI's, it made me wonder about what goes into most persons criteria for an ATG XI.

    Personally I go for a dominant No. 3, the rest of the middle order generally also attacking with one batsman who can anchor if required. A wicket keeper who can handle a bat and a batting and bowling all rounder and preferably three but at least two great (with one top tier) slip fielders. For the bowling attack, at least one of the bowlers must be genuine express, while a swing bowler and a metronome are the ideal compliments, though not always possible. The tail should also be handy while (serviceable) batting down to No. 10.

    That combination should result in a pretty well balanced (and over thought) team.
    I change mine all the time depending who I've recently read about!

    My current sig is one I really like though. I am of the firm belief that Hutton is the greatest opener ever, he faced great attacks and thrived, and I'm a big fan of Gavaskar, in spite of the fact you can pull apart his record a bit. To average 50+ as an opener in the 70s is unreal, and he was such a beautifully poised and balanced player. I think Gavaskar was doing what Tendulkar did so well in an era of great fast bowlers 20 years before Tendulkar.

    Bradman is Bradman, obviously. Then I love Pollock at #4, Viv at #5 and Sobers at #6. Completely capable of taking the game away in a session or two. Pragmatically, I'd have Sachin in place of Pollock, simply because he is such a well rounded player, and perfect for #4, but Pollock is a fave at the moment. I won't be swayed from Viv at #5, because of his aggression and ability to intimidate bowlers (that famous Imran quote). Sobers is Sobers, second batsman selected and a great option with the ball.

    I'm happy with either Gilly or Knott as keeper and #7, but tbh recently I read Gilly's autobio and I was a little underwhelmed by it. And I love Knott's quirkiness, dogged batting and elite keeping. So it's Knott for now.

    Marshall, Lillee and Ambrose give me everything I want in an pace attack (apart from a left armer). They are diverse (skiddy, classical, tall) and aggressive and relentless. All have good bouncers, all sustain pace over a long day, and all are intimidating predators. I've oft said I'm happy with any of the top 15 quicks of all time, but I like this trio particularly. I hate leaving out Hadlee and McGrath particularly, and I am a big fan of Lindwall, but the three I've chosen do it for me.

    I gravitate between Warne and O'Reilly. I dislike Warne the man, but to me he mastered the hardest skill in cricket and sustained that for well over a decade. He also has that will to win, and that never say die thing. He is also a massive show pony and tin arse who seems to have things fall his way. But really, I think you make your own luck, with skill. So Warne it is (he can also bat and field better than O'Reilly). I do love Murali the man, and love his ability, but I will forever struggle with the chucking thing, which is a shame, but it is what it is.

    This team also has a plethora of good slippers- Warne, Pollock and Sunny, as well as Viv and Sobers who were great in the slips, or in the covers/midwicket area.
    Last edited by Red Hill; 09-04-2014 at 03:51 AM.
    I'll never fear you, buddy.

  12. #2967
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Yeah, I like the team too.

    Knott through to Ambrose gives a tail that is probably weaker than most peoples selections as it misses out on Gilchrist, then Imran or Hadlee at No.8. However, there is something inherently appealing about Marshall, Lillee, and Ambrose bowling together, especially with Knott behind the stumps.

    I now hold the view after a fair amount of reading and gathering of opinions that SF Barnes typical speed when he had the new ball was around the 120kph mark. I would hesitate in picking a first change bowler any slower than that, but at around the 120 kph mark the combination of the 'magnus effect' and his finger-spun leg-breaks would prove to be extremely difficult to any batsman from any period that you care to mention.

    I'm therefore gravitating toward Knott-Marshall-Warne-Lillee- Barnes as my combo.
    Last edited by watson; 09-04-2014 at 01:51 AM.

  13. #2968
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Marshall, Lillee and Ambrose give me everything I want in an pace attack (apart from a left armer). They are diverse (skiddy, classical, tall) and aggressive and relentless. All have good bouncers, all sustain pace over a long day, and all are intimidating predators. I've commonly said I'm happy with any of the top 15 quicks of all time, but I like this trio particularly. I hate leaving out Hadlee and McGrath particularly, and I am a big fan of Lindwall, but these three do it for me.
    Exactly my favorite attack. To the tee.

  14. #2969
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post

    I now hold the view after a fair amount of reading and gathering of opinions that SF Barnes typical speed when he had the new ball was around the 120kph mark. I would hesitate in picking a first change bowler any slower than that, but at around the 120 kph mark the combination of the 'magnus effect' and his finger-spun leg-breaks would prove to be extremely difficult to any batsman from any period that you care to mention.

    I'm therefore gravitating toward Knott-Marshall-Warne-Lillee- Barnes as my combo.
    I want to give Barnes his due recognition, but it's so hard to gauge guys who played pre WW2 imo. I think there were some major differences in the game (not to get in to the whole "champion in one era thing") that make it hard to compare.

  15. #2970
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I change mine all the time depending who I've recently read about!

    My current sig is one I really like though. I am of the firm belief that Hutton is the greatest opener ever, he faced great attacks and thrived, and I'm a big fan of Gavaskar, in spite of the fact you can pull apart his record a bit. To average 50+ as an opener in the 70s is unreal, and he was such a beautifully poised and balanced player. I think Gavaskar was doing what Tendulkar did so well in an era of great fast bowlers 20 years before Tendulkar.

    Bradman is Bradman, obviously. Then I love Pollock at #4, Viv at #5 and Sobers at #6. Completely capable of taking the game away in a session or two. Pragmatically, I'd have Sachin in place of Pollock, simply because he is such a well rounded player, and perfect for #4, but Pollock is a fave at the moment. I won't be swayed from Viv at #5, because of his aggression and ability to intimidate bowlers (that famous Imran quote). Sobers is Sobers, second batsman selected and a great option with the ball.

    I'm happy with either Gilly or Knott as keeper and #7, but tbh recently I read Gilly's autobio and I was a little underwhelmed by it. And I love Knott's quirkiness, dogged batting and elite keeping. So it's Knott for now.

    Marshall, Lillee and Ambrose give me everything I want in an pace attack (apart from a left armer). They are diverse (skiddy, classical, tall) and aggressive and relentless. All have good bouncers, all sustain pace over a long day, and all are intimidating predators. I've oft said I'm happy with any of the top 15 quicks of all time, but I like this trio particularly. I hate leaving out Hadlee and McGrath particularly, and I am a big fan of Lindwall, but the three I've chosen do it for me.

    I gravitate between Warne and O'Reilly. I dislike Warne the man, but to me he mastered the hardest skill in cricket and sustained that for well over a decade. He also has that will to win, and that never say die thing. He is also a massive show pony and tin arse who seems to have things fall his way. But really, I think you make your own luck, with skill. So Warne it is (he can also bat and field better than O'Reilly). I do love Murali the man, and love his ability, but I will forever struggle with the chucking thing, which is a shame, but it is what it is.

    This team also has a plethora of good slippers- Warne, Pollock and Sunny, as well as Viv and Sobers who were great in the slips, or in the covers/midwicket area.
    Yup, Sobers by some distance was the best of that lot though, Pollock probably the weakest.



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