How good is Sanga?

[Monk]

Originally Posted by MrPlex

What do people think it takes to be a genuine all rounder?

A batting average of over 25 and bowling average of under 40 with your secondary skill IMO.

Batting average of 30 plus, bowling average of around (or under) 30 for an ATG AR IMO.

Variations on that depending on the needs of the team.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by MrPlex

What do people think it takes to be a genuine all rounder?

A batting average of over 25 and bowling average of under 40 with your secondary skill IMO.

A lot more than that, good enough to perform with both disciplines at the same time and justify a spot.

[watson]

If you're playing your allrounder at Nos 1-6 then a batting average of around 40 plus and a bowling average of around 30 or less is more or less required.

If batting at No. 7 or 8 then a batting average of 25-35 is OK, but the bowling average must be below 30 at least.

For an ATG team.

(These figures are relative to the era the allrounder was playing in of course)

[Viscount Tom]

Except he doesn't want to be.

[8ankitj]

South Africa in England 2012: Jacques Kallis underappreciated no longer | Cricket Features | England v South Africa | ESPN Cricinfo

Kallis is gun. We have to stop clutching straws with him. I ranked him at 13 in the last cw50 exercise and I believe he deserved that totally.

[kyear2]

Originally Posted by marc71178

And yet that same formula has proven successful for a long time for them, and was also the formula adapted by the 2 most successful sides of all time. So how unwise is it actually?

Been giving this a lot of though and I must admit that you are right, while it is not a hinderence to have a Sobers, Kallis or Imran, having a great all rounder has not really been a feature of the greatest teams with the exception of South Africa and Barlow.
What forced Sobers to be a great all rounder was the lack of quality bolwers at varying parts of his career and the importance of a great bowling all rounder is amplified by the weaknesses of their top order. Great teams for the most part were defined by great bowlers and strong batting line ups while it was the otherwise weaker teams that required the services of All Rounders.
I still think that it is good for team balance to have that good fifth bowler, but history says other wise.

The one theory that I have though that history does back up is that most of the great teams did have great cordons, and so from a winning perspective they seem to hold a greater importance than traditional all rounders. This can be a mere coincidence, but it is there, so ...................

The key though is to gain these additional qualities with out loosing or taking away from the quality batsmen or bowlers who makes the team great.

[kyear2]

Sorry guys, but to digress once again to my fav pet peeve, Cook's drop cost England a century by Pieterson today, and highlights the importance of having a settled and excellent cordon.Everyone will drop one from time to time (though he somewhat made up for it soon after with a blinder) but that one was a sitter that any regular slipper should have taken.

[Spark]

Yeah, definitely agree. You can't just throw good fielders into slip and expect them to be good slippers, plenty of examples where that's failed over the years.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Sorry guys, but to digress once again to my fav pet peeve, Cook's drop cost England a century by Pieterson today, and highlights the importance of having a settled and excellent cordon.Everyone will drop one from time to time (though he somewhat made up for it soon after with a blinder) but that one was a sitter that any regular slipper should have taken.

what if the catch had gone down in the covers?

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Spark

Yeah, definitely agree. You can't just throw good fielders into slip and expect them to be good slippers, plenty of examples where that's failed over the years.

I reckon most very good fielders are also good slippers. Using Australians as an example-

Mark Waugh
Ricky Ponting
Allan Border

(and also guys like Viv, Clive Lloyd, AB DeVil)

have all been excellent fielders, and also excellent slippers.

Some guys, like Taylor, Hayden and Warne, have been excellent (or at least good) slippers, but pretty average fielders.

[Spark]

They were slippers as well as fielders, though, not makeshift slippers just because they were good fielders. The most obvious Australian examples I can think of are Symonds and Clarke (though Clarke is much better nowadays), and lately Watson.

Of course, some people are just absolute freaks (MWaugh, ABdV)

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Spark

They were slippers as well as fielders, though, not makeshift slippers just because they were good fielders. The most obvious Australian examples I can think of are Symonds and Clarke (though Clarke is much better nowadays), and lately Watson.

Of course, some people are just absolute freaks (MWaugh, ABdV)

True. I reckon Symonds would have made a great slipper in a similar way to Viv (I cant recall Symonds ever being in the slips, but he may have been), and I reckon Watson is a pretty crap fielder whether he is in the cordon or the ring or the outfield. He has no flexibility, and no gracefulness. Just robotic.

[Spark]

Symonds was in the slips for a few Tests, and dropped about as many as he caught. Was bad.

Watson's a good ring fielder tbh. Excellent hands.

[marc71178]

Originally Posted by kyear2

Sorry guys, but to digress once again to my fav pet peeve, Cook's drop cost England a century by Pieterson today, and highlights the importance of having a settled and excellent cordon.Everyone will drop one from time to time (though he somewhat made up for it soon after with a blinder) but that one was a sitter that any regular slipper should have taken.

That's all well and good but what do they do if the regular isn't there for whatever reason, leave a gap?

[kyear2]

Bell and Cook has been tried in the slips to less than stellar results recently, while everyone is saying how good Trott is and he is a specilaist. Additionally don't over react and drop one of your most important players after one bad match, he is important to the lower order batting, his slip fielding and of course his bowling, Finn for Bresnam would have made more sense.