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Thread: Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

  1. #31
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    It's more nuanced than that. You read about when they scored their runs, the kind of pitches they batted on and so on.
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    International Vice-Captain Mike5181's Avatar
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    I do remember Benaud's all time eleven or something didn't have Marshall, Murali, Knott etc short listed in their respective categories which was a bit far fetched. It's like validating your own era and your own record by rating players you played against higher.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruckus View Post
    There's actually a fair bit of quality footage of Sobers. Here's one gem from robelinda Sir Gary Sobers 254 vs Australia 1971/72 - YouTube.
    What do we learn from it, unless I have seen most of his knocks? Everybody looks good when they are scoring doubles, even Kallis.

  4. #34
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Either way it's definitely a lot more complicated that Kallis's average > Sobers => Kallis > Sobers.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    How highly do you rate Courtney Walsh? 519 wickets in a career spanning 18 years for a quick, is amazing. He doesn't get all the credit that he deserves.
    Yeah top 15 bowlers of all time for me.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5181 View Post
    I do remember Benaud's all time eleven or something didn't have Marshall, Murali, Knott etc short listed in their respective categories which was a bit far fetched. It's like validating your own era and your own record by rating players you played against higher.
    How many of his XI were from his playing era??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Yeah top 15 bowlers of all time for me.
    Impressive. Never heard you mention anything about Walsh before.

  8. #38
    rza
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Nah, because that's just assuming that their careers have the same rate of progression, and players develop at all sorts of weird and wonderful rates. When comparing Donald to Steyn you pretty much have to pretend that Steyn retired yesterday ... which is why it's a fairly pointless exercise until he actually calls it a day.

    Certainly is by me. To have such an awesome batsman play for so long is invaluable to a team. I don't think actually think the quality of his batsmanship in mean terms is much if at all better than the likes of Ponting or Kallis but that he's been able to give his team that sort of high quality for longer than the others is what puts him ahead in my books.
    You make two good points. Correct me if I'm wrong. If Steyn passes Donald wickets at more or less the same average and strike-rate as he has now, do we then conclude he was better or equal? If Kallis plays for three more years after Tendulkar retires, and he passes his runs at more or less the same average, do we then rate Kallis in the same level as Tendulkar?

    Let me use your analogy against you. Kallis played 50 tests (I think Sobers played 93 tests) more than Sobers, so why doesn't his longevity elevate him above Sobers, if Tendulkar's longevity elevates him above most?

  9. #39
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    I definitely wouldn't, because of the way he scored his runs for a large part of his career.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5181 View Post
    I do remember Benaud's all time eleven or something didn't have Marshall, Murali, Knott etc short listed in their respective categories which was a bit far fetched. It's like validating your own era and your own record by rating players you played against higher.
    During the Sri Lanka series in SA, pundits did the same thing, and all of them chose the best bowlers as those who played in their era. It's a fuss really.

  11. #41
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    Wow, just a touch controversial and in your face.

    I hate comparing across eras but I guess its done for a bit of fun and debate.

    Kallis and Sobers are both legends and I see no need to say one is better than the other. But I would say is that I would have both in my team. Also very different styles of all-rounders. If you did research on Sobers and read up on Sobers and see footage you can see his style was one that made people get excited and thats why people possibly rate him over Kallis. But to me I love technicians at work and thats why I love Jacques Kallis...you want to teach a young boy how to defend his wicket for his life and how to have a proper technique...you show them Kallis. Still bowling 140kmph at 36 is also freakish. But to me both in my team thankyou!

    PrinceEWS hits nail on the head...if Steyn retires tomorrow...Donald is the better. You go on about stats and so on... stats cannot predict the future and how good someone can be over a longer period into the future. But once again just remember them both...well in Donalds case legend and Steyn potentially a legend.

    G. Pollock was an absolute freak and if you read what players of his era said about him, you just know how good he was. Bradman, Benaud et al. There is also plenty of footage that I have seen of G. Pollock internationally and I was lucky to see him domestically in the mid 80's and wow can only describe him. Trott and Mussey are just nowhere near him as a player as people have said...listen to those who played with or against him an era or legends who had retired already and have seen over the different eras and G. Pollock is a different level.
    Last edited by SeamUp; 09-01-2012 at 06:09 AM.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    Either way it's definitely a lot more complicated that Kallis's average > Sobers => Kallis > Sobers.
    What about Kallis' longevity in terms of tests played?

  13. #43
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Longevity is only one factor, there are others.

    I mean, you're asking a hell of a lot here - I personally rate Tendulkar as the second best of all time, so...

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rza View Post
    You make two good points. Correct me if I'm wrong. If Steyn passes Donald wickets at more or less the same average and strike-rate as he has now, do we then conclude he was better or equal? If Kallis plays for three more years after Tendulkar retires, and he passes his runs at more or less the same average, do we then rate Kallis in the same level as Tendulkar?
    I think you're looking at it a little simplistically. There are more things to look at than just the base rate, which is why I dabble in things like standardised averages and relative longevity. But assuming all other nuances and such equal (which is never the case, but hey ho) then yeah, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rza View Post
    Let me use your analogy against you. Kallis played 50 tests (I think Sobers played 93 tests) more than Sobers, so why doesn't his longevity elevate him above Sobers, if Tendulkar's longevity elevates him above most?
    Longevity is about how long you can give your services to your side rather than how many Tests you actually play. South Africa played a lot more Tests in Kallis's time than the West Indies played in Sobers's, so Tests played is not exactly a fair comparison. Sobers actually had a longer career than Kallis has so far so, if anything, he gets more points in longevity.
    Last edited by Prince EWS; 09-01-2012 at 06:10 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeamUp View Post
    Wow, just a touch controversial and in your face.

    I hate comparing across eras but I guess its done for a bit of fun and debate.

    Kallis and Sobers are both legends and I see no need to say one is better than the other. But I would say is that I would have both in my team. Also very different styles of all-rounders. If you did research on Sobers on read up on Sobers and see footage you can see his style was one that made people get excited and thats why people possibly rate him over Kallis but to me I love technicians at work and thats why I love Jacques Kallis...you want to teach a young boy how to defend his wicket for his life and how to have a proper technique...you show them Kallis. Still bowling 140kmph at 36 is also freakish.

    PrinceEWS hits nail on the head...if Steyn retires tomorrow...Donald is the better. You go on about stats and so on... stats cannot predict the future and how good someone can be over a longer period into the future. But once again just remember them both...well in Donalds case legend and Steyn potentially a legend.

    G. Pollock was an absolute freak and if you read what players of his era said about him, you just know how good he was. Bradman, Benaud et al. There is also plenty of footage that I have seen of G. Pollock internationally and I was lucky to see him domestically in the mid 80's and wow can only describe him. Trott and Mussey are just nowhere near him as a player as people have said...listen to those who played with or against him an era or legends who had retired already and have seen over the different eras and G. Pollock is a different level.
    If a person says they rate Sobers more because of his style, then I have no problem with that since stats are close. I rate Lara higher than Tendulkar because of his style of play and the kinda shots he played, but that is not absurd because Lara's stats are also impressive. So I guess the same can be said of Pollock then, but isn't it amazing that today's bowlers will probably say the same about Sehwag, considering the abuse they got from him?

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