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Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

Who was the better Test cricketer: Imran or Sobers?


  • Total voters
    168

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Went thru the links. These statements of Holder & More , though is enough to doubt even Kapil , do not have enough in it to prove the REPEATED OFFENSE of Indian players w.r.t tampering.



In the above links , Kapil is seen convincingly making it clear that he didn't resort to tampering and that he would have got more than 500 wkts if he resorted to tampering.I personally still remembers him years back appearing in a prominent TV channel and echoing the same statement with utmost assurance.

The decades old relationship of enmity & animosity between the 2 nations was at its extreme during this period.Keeping in mind as to what happend in that 83 series in PAK , Indian team management too would have decided to take any extreme steps if required.As umpire Holder & More points out, tampering would have happend mostly with Prabhakar at the lead, . But from Kapil's own admission , we can assume Kapil to be innocent in this saga despite surely being aware about what was going around him.The scenario would have been that he minded his own business of not indulging in any malpractice but being well aware that some other members of the team did some thing related to
tampering with 83 series in mind. Yes, umpire Holder has pointed out Kapil's name too.But we need to evaluate things based on what happend in the latest Cameron Bancroft incident.Even with the aid of 30 or so cameras and such big screens and all ,the field umpires couldn't identify as to what was going on and to be more precise as to who was the person behind tampering. It took around 1.30 hrs effort of cameras to identify that Bancroft was the culprit behind doing the dirty work.If this is the case in these much highly technologically advanced days, how could a middle aged umpire with out any technical assistance trace out exactly as to who exactly was tampering the ball among 11 players spread distances apart in a vast ground???Naturally when ever the ball would have passed on to him, umpire Holder could have realized that ball was being tampered with.But to think that he knew exactly the culprit behind the tampering is big folly.Naturally he named the 2 main bowlers in the Indian camp and also PAK camp.

Similarly Kiran More was only a relatively junior member of 3 years old in the team coming into this 89 PAK series.It can be rightly assumed that
he too could sense ball tampering taking place with out knowing as to who actually were involved in putting that into practice.

One thing which can be agreed upon is that all the bowlers would benefit from a tampered ball even if tampering is done by even a single player only. But it is naive to think that Kapil got any benefit when opposition score happend to be 699/5 in the lone inns in the Lahore test match(John Holder's test match).In other 3 test matches of the series , he could have got a bit of a benefit .

Testimonies w,r,t Imran's tampering:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1472410 //john bass
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cricket/we-did-doctor-the-ball-sarfraz/articleshow/616951.cms
// sadiq mohamed

Game related personalities giving testimonies as per the above links: Imran himself, Shoaib Akhtar, Rameez Raja, Aamer Sohail ,Abdul Qadir, Sarfraz Nawaz, Mudassar Nazar,Younis Ahmed,Sadiq Mohammed,Shahbaz Shereef,Don Oslear,Chris Old, Ian Taylor,Allan Lamb,Robin Smith ,Ian Botham, John Reid,John Bass ,Arun Lal, Balwinder Sandhu, Ravi Sastri , Kapil Dev, Maninder Singh, Mohinder Amarnath,Chetan Chauhan, Kirti Azad and a few more ....

Some of the few anecdotes which are having either missing links or very difficult to trace out from the above links are as follows:

Ian Botham said : i suggest that the best thing imran can do is just shut up because he has done enough damage to this game.

Mohinder Amarnath in an interview after the tour said that he once saw the Pakistani team take the ball with them to their dressing room during lunch. When he protested to the umpire, he was told quite rudely to keep quiet and bat.I have always wondered about what really was the difference between the two sides on that tour. The kind of movement Imran was getting on those tracks was, quite frankly, very hard to achieve without some sort of thing being done to the ball. Of course, this sort of thing is conjecture and nothing can be conclusively proved either way.My suspicion about the state of the ball on that tour was later again aroused when Imran admitted to using a bottle top in a sussex game in 1981 - ie the year before we toured Pakistan. He said that "the ball was doing absolutely nothing, so I had the 12th man bring out a bottle top and then it started moving all over the place" or something to this effect. If he was motivated enough to use such means in a game for sussex when the ball was not doing much, it is hard to believe he would not use such means in a game against India.Imran was a great bowler, but I do think that his feats in that particular series were achieved with some amount of help from factors other than just bowling skill. Indeed, his performance in that series still stands as a record (42 wickets IIRC).

Maninder singh :It was so blatant. Whenever the Pakistani team took the field after a break, the ball would start doing strange things. I also felt it was never the same ball used after each break. Imran Khan and Sarfraz Nawaz would come out and make the ball talk; it used to move all over the place. The ball would cut back and hit the batsman in the midriff and chest. Everyone knows GR Viswanath was once out shouldering arms to a ball.

Imran Khan was genuinely quick and the “made up” ball only made things worse for us. After a while we stopped protesting. The reverse swing made them unplayable. The thing with reverse swing is it cuts back so late that batsmen find it very difficult to adjust to the pace.

Balwinder sandhu : By the way, according to me, they hold the copyright when it comes to ball-tampering. They are masters at it and they taught others," Sandhu told MiD DAY. During his debut series in Pakistan, 1982-83, Sandhu suspected something was being done to the ball by the Pakistani bowlers and fielders during drink intervals.

"Our doubts were confirmed when some of their players, who were dropped during the series told us that the ball was tampered with," said Sandhu.

A few months back , I came across a youtube link in which one Afghan minister is quoting in the lines 'Imran should remember that Afghanistan is not a cricket ball to be tampered with' .' John Bass ' among those names I quoted is a US national. Naturally when even a US national is accusing Imran Khan, then the massiveness of the credentials w.r.t these allegations can only be imagined .All these quotes from quite a handful of cricketers and other prominent personalities makes me firmly believe that Imran did it on several occasions and that too exceeding all the limits.

Statistical evidences:

Imran's career phases

A bowler who was averaging 32.51 during the first 8 years of his career suddenly starts averaging in the digits so much so that in the next phase he averages a paltry 19.45 .Even more strange is the home average of mere 16.8 in this 2nd phase. It is really rare to come across such peculiar flow of averages for any quality bowler in the history of the game.

Kapil's career phases.

In the 83 PAK series most of the Indian players speculated that some thing was being done to the ball by the Pakistanis( from another link & Sandhu's words above confirms it).Naturally it can be assumed in all probablity that Indians knew nothing about tampering that time.Soon in 83 itself Kapil played in the series vs WI in India. After that he had his knee surgery.Till that point Kapil's record read at 62 tests,247 wkts @27.72 avg:. Balwinder Sandhu who has played a lot with Kapil dev (even in the 83 WI series in India and also in that 83 PAK series) has stated with utmost assurance and sincerity that he never would place Imran over Kapil because of tampering and that Kapil was a clean cricketer.Sandhu being such closely associated with these players and events would know much better than we people, isn't it???So it's sure that Kapil took 247 wkts in 62 tests at a very good avg: of 27.72 with out any tampering.

After that his knee injury and subsequent surgery came.He didn't take adequate rest after surgery.The result was that in his next 30 tests
he could only pick 72 wkts @ 36.25.And more importantly an avg: of 40.26 in 19 tests at home during this period.If he tampered with the ball his
figures would certainly have been much better isn't it???

Then in the next 2 series in WI and 'NZL at home' respectively Kapil was at his very best.Here too there is nothing to suggest that ball
tampering took place because in WI Kapil had always been brilliant like 'duck into water' and against NZL he could feed of brilliant performance of 2 spin bowlers Ayub & Hirwani.

After that the 89 series in PAK happend.Prabhakar played 39 tests in total and avg:ed a paltry 37.3. 1st test in 89 PAK tour was only his 2nd test match.So at the worst case, even if Prabhakar tampered with the ball in all matches he played in moving forward , there is nothing to suggest that he knew even the basics of proper tampering, keeping in mind a mere ordinary trundler Chris Pringle could pick 11 wickets in his first tampering attempt that too on flat Pakistan pitch. Other wise how come he could avg: only 37.3??? That means ,even if other bowlers too would involuntarily benefit from ball tampering in normal cases , in Prabhakar's case that would be practically nil.That inturn means Prabhakar never indulged in tampering after that 89 PAK series. If he did, he would have averaged much better in his career.

So all in all ,it can be safely assumed that 89 PAK tour has been the only instance of occurance of tampering in Kapil's career where he was
not at all the culprit.

To conclude, I am only stating a few anecdotes.My conclusion is that Imran was a chronic ball tamperor who doesn't deserve the 'greatness' which his 'stats' calls for.Again each to their own .
That long prose shows Kapil either kept a blind eye on Prabhakar's tampering (while benefitting from it), or he was a part of it. Second is the expected response. First is rich and hypocritical to the core.
 

rtramdas

U19 12th Man
So much wrong here.

But I will say this:

- You ignore that Imran Khan's stat peak coincided with his physical peak when he perfected his action, had experience in WSC under his belt and was very successful not just at home but away too.

- Ball tampering was rampant ACROSS cricket at the time. To quote Holding 'I won't pretend I never tampered with the ball'. There's a reason Hadlee is calling for legalising ball tampering. Picking the seam especially was the norm and scratching. You want to pretend Indian bowlers were saints, that is on you.

- Imran's success was a culmination of a number of factors: Physical peak of speed, perfect action for inswing, lack of awareness of reverse at the time, and yes, allowance for tampering which was a norm.
what ever be your justifications, you won't come across this alarming drop of bowling average from 32.5 in the first phase to mere 19.45 in the 2nd phase in any quality bowler that has played the game till date.Again you won't find so much people pointing fingers at one man either as is the case with Imran. W.R.T Indian bowlers, I don't find any statistical proof of Kapil's bowling figures improving as a result of any 'tampering' . Infact it dropped from 27.72 in first phase to 36.25 in the 2nd phase.
 

rtramdas

U19 12th Man
That long prose shows Kapil either kept a blind eye on Prabhakar's tampering (while benefitting from it), or he was a part of it. Second is the expected response. First is rich and hypocritical to the core.
yeah... Kapil immensely benefitted from being in the company of a 37.3 averaging bowler who played only 39 tests while he himself played 131 tests. You shall believe in it . I simply can't.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
yeah... Kapil immensely benefitted from being in the company of a 37.3 averaging bowler who played only 39 tests while he himself played 131 tests. You shall believe in it . I simply can't.
None of it above negates the fact that Prabhakar tampered the ball, and Kapil accepted or was oblivious to it. First stance is understandable as the team spirit. Second shows hypocrisy of a sore loser and a whiner. The hilarious part is even with tampering Indian brigade of Prabhakar and Kapil, and Poms were both unable to get reverse swing. Poms started whining first. Two decades later Kapil joined with the whining.
 

subshakerz

International Coach
what ever be your justifications, you won't come across this alarming drop of bowling average from 32.5 in the first phase to mere 19.45 in the 2nd phase in any quality bowler that has played the game till date.Again you won't find so much people pointing fingers at one man either as is the case with Imran. W.R.T Indian bowlers, I don't find any statistical proof of Kapil's bowling figures improving as a result of any 'tampering' . Infact it dropped from 27.72 in first phase to 36.25 in the 2nd phase.
Plenty of bowlers had a drop from early career to peak. You don't want to concede Imran for being an exceptional bowler in his peak, which by the way around 82/83 most cricket punditry considered him the best bowler in the world.

Imran just had the balls to admit to what everyone else was doing. You should give him credit.

Ball tampering, within certain limits, doesn't make someone magically a great bowler. Scratches or lifted seams here or there aren't going to give you worldclass averages.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
what ever be your justifications, you won't come across this alarming drop of bowling average from 32.5 in the first phase to mere 19.45 in the 2nd phase in any quality bowler that has played the game till date.
I didn’t bother reading your links cos they weren’t of interest to me, but this is a **** argument.

Imran in his first 22 vs last 66: 32.51 vs 19.45
Hadlee in his first 22 vs last 64: 32.87 vs 19.81

In this case it happened to occur at almost the exact same time and at almost the exact same player ages.
 

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, was going to post this too but couldn't be bothered statsguruing. Anderson is another example.
Yeah him too, obviously worse averages on both sides, but similar difference etc. Amazingly for both batsmen and bowlers its not uncommon to have a slow start and then hit an extended peak.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
So much wrong here.

But I will say this:

- You ignore that Imran Khan's stat peak coincided with his physical peak when he perfected his action, had experience in WSC under his belt and was very successful not just at home but away too.

- Ball tampering was rampant ACROSS cricket at the time. To quote Holding 'I won't pretend I never tampered with the ball'. There's a reason Hadlee is calling for legalising ball tampering. Picking the seam especially was the norm and scratching. You want to pretend Indian bowlers were saints, that is on you.

- Imran's success was a culmination of a number of factors: Physical peak of speed, perfect action for inswing, lack of awareness of reverse at the time, and yes, allowance for tampering which was a norm.
Plenty of bowlers had a drop from early career to peak. You don't want to concede Imran for being an exceptional bowler in his peak, which by the way around 82/83 most cricket punditry considered him the best bowler in the world.

Imran just had the balls to admit to what everyone else was doing. You should give him credit.

Ball tampering, within certain limits, doesn't make someone magically a great bowler. Scratches or lifted seams here or there aren't going to give you worldclass averages.

I'm not getting involved in this argument, but your statements don't sit well with me.

The argument used to be, nah he didn't, but after there was indisputable evidence he did, the argument shifted to, it's ok, everyone else did it as well and now you're taking it to the extra step of, we should "give him credit"

And this has nothing to do with Imran, but rather the apologists. Most objective observers have long factored in these issues and moved on. And no, it doesn't need to be harped on.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I'm not getting involved in this argument, but your statements don't sit well with me.

The argument used to be, nah he didn't, but after there was indisputable evidence he did, the argument shifted to, it's ok, everyone else did it as well and now you're taking it to the extra step of, we should "give him credit"
Errr, when did this happen?
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Not going to go looking, but the arguments were made. Also, I'm not looking to pull down anyone's legacy, Imran's or anyone else's, but the last comment went too far.
Nobody ever argued that he never tampered with the ball. Not sure where you are cooking up the stories from. Heck, he's on record saying that he did.
 

rtramdas

U19 12th Man
None of it above negates the fact that Prabhakar tampered the ball, and Kapil accepted or was oblivious to it. First stance is understandable as the team spirit. Second shows hypocrisy of a sore loser and a whiner. The hilarious part is even with tampering Indian brigade of Prabhakar and Kapil, and Poms were both unable to get reverse swing. Poms started whining first. Two decades later Kapil joined with the whining.
Kapil after all was only 1 member of the team . If the team management collectively decided to take any extreme step to counter Pakistan's any immoral & unfair tactics even with Kapil disagreeing to it , Kapil could only mind his own business and perform with out resorting to any dirty tactics. How can Kapil be blamed for that ??
As I said, it is only natural that Kapil too could benefit a bit from the tampering acts of other players, especially Prabhakar in that 89 series.
I accepted this fact in that long reply itself. There is no 'hypocrisy of a sore loser and a whiner' if a player is not guilty of committing any wrong act.
 

rtramdas

U19 12th Man
Plenty of bowlers had a drop from early career to peak. You don't want to concede Imran for being an exceptional bowler in his peak, which by the way around 82/83 most cricket punditry considered him the best bowler in the world.

Imran just had the balls to admit to what everyone else was doing. You should give him credit.

Ball tampering, within certain limits, doesn't make someone magically a great bowler. Scratches or lifted seams here or there aren't going to give you worldclass averages.
but bottle tops, screwdrivers etc etc can provide world class averages . Younis Ahmed Imran's fellow Pakistan player had given testimony to this act .
 
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rtramdas

U19 12th Man
Maybe that's coz he was ****
Hadlee's bowling average dropped from 35.6 during the first 5 years of his career to 19.6 during his 1978-86 peak years.
might be Hadlee too ... I meant , such cases are exceptions rather than normal . BTW didn't Hadlee ask to make tampering legal ?....
Any way , not going there because that has nothing to do with current subject. This is Imran - Sobers subject with Kapil added into the mix.
 

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