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Why can't India produce great fast bowlers like Pakistan?

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Well we are talking about fast bowlers of the Imran/Waqar/Wasim quality. SL hasn't produced any of those either.
Then even Pakistan haven't produced many TBH. They produce quick bowlers, but world class bowlers are rarity even in Pakistan, only three to be precise in last 40-50 years. I'd rate Kapil, Vaas and Srinath as class acts too. Otherwise we are looking at once in a generation bowler. It's like asking why England did not produce a Murali or a Kumble in last 40 years.
 

Dissector

International Debutant
Well there was Shoaib who I would rate above Vaas or Srinath. And there is Asif who in his brief career has looked like a near-great bowler at least.
 

TumTum

Banned
Tennis ball is roasted in an open fire until the outer coat of wool melts and forms a hard plastic like crust. Then it travel through air quickly, moves off the surface and skids. If you pu in enough shoulders will bounce too. For spinners it will drift in the air without much difference in the amount of spin, but will skid on after pitching. Batsman has to play very late, especially when the bowler is putting some spin on it or when it pitches in good L&L
Very interesting indeed. I assume it has the same characteristics as a fully taped tennis ball then?

Do you know any methods to make the tennis ball seam sideways after pitching? Because if you don't have that quick pace, the swing from the half taped balls is rather easy to play (swings from the hand, just follow the curve etc). I'm trying to find ways to make it seam instead. I tried winding wire around the ball, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. The only way to make the ball move when pitching is to spin it (or a cutter), but that just slows down the ball, I want it to skid and move at the same time like a real cricket ball would.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
Woot, my two favourite subjects, height and speed.

Despite the talk about Pakistanis being better "built" for fast bowling, a lot of them are really very small for fast bowlers. Akhtar is 5'11", for example, and there are a number of others of similar stature- I don't think Riaz or Ahmed are much taller, and Umar Gul looks tall by comparison but is really only 6'1"- 6'2", and about 3 foot of that is his head.

Mark Richardson was interviewing Waqar Younis the other day and I was a little taken aback that they are basically the same height, so about 5'10"ish. I know he isn't a fast bowler, but Shahid Afridi is nevertheless built like an archetypal strong Pakistani cricketer, yet he is clearly shorter than Ross Taylor, so again, no more than 5'11". I daresay Rana Naved and Razzaq are similar and Sami a bit shorter.

It's funny because in the last 20 years I can only think of Danny Morrison and Andre Adams as NZ pacers of similar stature, yet Pakistan have a production line of blokes who can nudge up to 140kph or higher. I know height is useful, but are NZ missing a trick somewhere with the relentless 6'3" and over 130kph bowlers? You can't really say Pakistanis are built for pace bowling in the conventional sense as by international standards a lot of their quicks are tiny.
Height is not the only factor..strength, wrists, shoulder is another factor. Javagal Srinath was taller than Waqar Younis..didnt make him faster
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Very interesting indeed. I assume it has the same characteristics as a fully taped tennis ball then?

Do you know any methods to make the tennis ball seam sideways after pitching? Because if you don't have that quick pace, the swing from the half taped balls is rather easy to play (swings from the hand, just follow the curve etc). I'm trying to find ways to make it seam instead. I tried winding wire around the ball, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. The only way to make the ball move when pitching is to spin it (or a cutter), but that just slows down the ball, I want it to skid and move at the same time like a real cricket ball would.
To seam the tape ball you can bowl cutters. I have seen bowlers in street cricket in Pakistan bowl cutters at good pace. Although for the usual bowler it is a difficult task.

And the reverse swing for the tape ball is good and not as easily playable if you only remove a small strip from the ball. A half taped ball will start swinging right from the hand I guess.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Then even Pakistan haven't produced many TBH. They produce quick bowlers, but world class bowlers are rarity even in Pakistan, only three to be precise in last 40-50 years. I'd rate Kapil, Vaas and Srinath as class acts too. Otherwise we are looking at once in a generation bowler. It's like asking why England did not produce a Murali or a Kumble in last 40 years.
I think Pakistan have produced quite a few bowlers who I would rate above the other sub-continental pace bowlers bar Kapil. Other than Imran, Wasim, Waqar there was Fazal Mahmood, Sarfaraz Nawaz, (Amir and Asif although their careers are over). But yes I would tend to think that SL and South Indians do look somewhat similar (even in physique) but there are few pace bowlers of note from South India while one can name a few from SL.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
There are a few things that still haven't been looked into. This is a consequence of India's ridiculously inept player management. Not just among pacers, even spinners, all-rounders and wicketkeepers, good enough for this team at their own times, have been shunted out virtually permanently. They don't invest in players, but pick them when needed and drop them when the going gets tough, left with a shrinking talent pool and poor replacements.

The athletic physique and tendencies should be there in a contender for a fast bowler- not a seam-and-swing stalwart. Muscles help sustain this style of play over time, but someone who's a natural athlete will be a better pacer. All the fastest bowlers are very good athletes, unlike most of the bowlers fielded by India- and even India's fastest are good on the field.

Bowling actions also play a part. Most actions need a check on whether they're getting the most out of each delivery, and if they're sustainable. This is an area left best to the experts, as they can point out technical glitches and remedies that can add a significant amount of pace. Some Indian bowling actions look dreadful and the sooner they're changed, the better.

There's also a need for change in outlook. Far too much priority is given to words of several players from bygone eras, who bemoan the tendency of India's younger bowlers to strive for pace. This so-called Indian Way of Coaching, which emphasises that India has always produced medium-pacers, and should continue to do so, should be scrapped immediately. Then again, even Greg Chappell, an Australian, from the same team and time as Dennis Lillee, turned Munaf, the fastest bowler in the country, into a weakened medium-pace line-and-length metronome. He lost his pace, and with it, his striking power. This has to be turned around, with specific bowlers encouraged to strive for pace.

Injuries have often resulted in players not striving for pace, so that they can hold on to their places. That tendency is quite disappointing. The people in charge should encourage them to bowl fast, and at the same time, ensure their security in the team, so that even if a replacement is found and is doing slightly better, the frontline players return when they can.

This race for pace isn't a good thing either. It doesn't matter if that particular delivery is faster than Binga, Shoaib or Bond- it just has to take a wicket. More than record-breaking pace, serious pace sustained over time is useful.

To sum this up, they should pick the best bowlers in the country, help them add some pace, keep their places in and around the team intact, invest in appropriate facilities and encourage them to bowl decently fast over time. And of course, stay far away from the so-called Indian Way of Coaching.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Very interesting indeed. I assume it has the same characteristics as a fully taped tennis ball then?

Do you know any methods to make the tennis ball seam sideways after pitching? Because if you don't have that quick pace, the swing from the half taped balls is rather easy to play (swings from the hand, just follow the curve etc). I'm trying to find ways to make it seam instead. I tried winding wire around the ball, but it doesn't seem to have any effect. The only way to make the ball move when pitching is to spin it (or a cutter), but that just slows down the ball, I want it to skid and move at the same time like a real cricket ball would.
With the tape ball yeah. Put a thick rubber band as a seam. You can fold it in itself. Even a tubing from a used drip-set at hospitals will do. Then tape should be applied over it so you get a seam like effect. If it's bowled to hit the "seam", the different elasticity of the saline tube will change the pace. As the seam hits the ground asymmetrically and because even the "seam" is not exactly midline, it deviates a litte. But it's very difficult to move a tennis ball what ever you do.

An alternate method is to use the soft ball coaching manual. You need a slightly different grip with forefinger down the imaginary seam of the tennis ball, and middle finger assumes a position midway of the side of the ball. When this is delivered with a high arm action the ball will move away from the RHB after pitching because it creates back spin allowing to ball to move like a leg break. Because it is bowled high arm drifts in to the RHB in the air is an added advantage. I used to be a very effective soft ball bowler due to this method. The orthodox grip delivery usually drifts in to RHB without movement, so is a good change up ball. If you are craft enough just turn the wrist from a seamers position to off spinners position slightly and you'll get the in cutter. If it is rolled out like the off break then a vicious incutter is the result with ample bounce although little slower.

But I'd warn you that it will be a totally useless exercise to practice this with the hard ball, and orthodox high arm action with straight seam is the best way to go about. And I'd discourage you on trying this is you play hard ball cricket too.
 
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thierry henry

International Coach
Height is not the only factor..strength, wrists, shoulder is another factor. Javagal Srinath was taller than Waqar Younis..didnt make him faster
Of course- but you'd hardly find a bloke as short as Waqar Younis bowling pace in FC cricket in Australia, NZ, England, South Africa. What I'm saying is that to suggest Pakistanis generally have more of a "fast bowlers physique" is a fallacy. The physique of Pakistani fast bowlers is very different to the physique of fast bowlers in other countries.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Of course- but you'd hardly find a bloke as short as Waqar Younis bowling pace in FC cricket in Australia, NZ, England, South Africa. What I'm saying is that to suggest Pakistanis generally have more of a "fast bowlers physique" is a fallacy. The physique of Pakistani fast bowlers is very different to the physique of fast bowlers in other countries.
I am not sure there is any such thing as a fast bowler's physique is there????
 

thierry henry

International Coach
You're using average NZ heights as a standard though, huge flaw/assumption. Taller = better fast bowler isn't necessarily true. There's probably an optimum height and build combination for fast bowlers.
No no no- I'm aware that average height in NZ is taller than Pakistan. Also, I'm aware that in both NZ and Pakistan, the average height of fast bowlers in first class cricket is much taller than the general average height across the population.

You can't deny that fast bowling is a tall man's job- everywhere you look, you will find that the average height for a fast bowler is well above the overall average height. Hence you get guys like Malcolm Marshall being described as short when they are solidly average height, or Richard Hadlee being described as not that tall in this very thread when he was about 4-5 inches above average height in NZ for his era!

What I'm saying is, the old chestnut that "Pakistanis are built for fast bowling" doesn't really stack up, given that if the average Pakistani quick turned up at an academy in NZ he'd be considered a dwarf with a far from ideal physique for the job.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I don't know.

All I'm saying is that a cursory glance at cricket around the world would clearly establish that fast bowlers on average are well above average height.
Yes but this does not necessarily imply that because fast bowlers around the world are tall that is the requisite physique of a fast bowler.

I guess the height comes in handy when the bowler wants to generate bounce and it probably does not have much role to play in generating pace. You probably need stronger shoulders to generate higher pace.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Then even Pakistan haven't produced many TBH. They produce quick bowlers, but world class bowlers are rarity even in Pakistan, only three to be precise in last 40-50 years.
Yeah, but it's odd that their fast bowling depth is just incomparable to India's. I remember when Gul broke down during the English summer they brought in Wahab Riaz to make his debut and he promptly took a five-fer in his first innings of test bowling. Pakistan can pluck a fast bowler out of obscurity that would have walked into the Indian team years ago. There must be a reason for it, it's so, so strange.
 

thierry henry

International Coach
Yes but this does not necessarily imply that because fast bowlers around the world are tall that is the requisite physique of a fast bowler.
Indeed, and I never said it did.

As I said from the start, if blokes like Akhtar really do have an excellent fast bowling physique, it begs the question why in NZ (for example) we have pretty much no fast bowlers like him, given that there are far more blokes around who are Akhtar's height than Kyle Mills' height. In NZ fast bowling seems to be the domain of the tall man. Maybe we're doing it wrong somehow.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
It's a general opinion in India that the Pathan community, which Pakistan has a sizable number of, are extremely strong people genetically. Might have something to do with it.
 

Black_Warrior

Cricketer Of The Year
It's a general opinion in India that the Pathan community, which Pakistan has a sizable number of, are extremely strong people genetically. Might have something to do with it.
Its not just Pathans but the Punjabis..and there is not a strong cricketing tradition in the Indian side of Punjab..something we have already discussed in this thread.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
It's a general opinion in India that the Pathan community, which Pakistan has a sizable number of, are extremely strong people genetically. Might have something to do with it.
The pathans generally are well built and have a tough terrain where they grow up. The opinion is well founded I think.

Indeed, and I never said it did.

As I said from the start, if blokes like Akhtar really do have an excellent fast bowling physique, it begs the question why in NZ (for example) we have pretty much no fast bowlers like him, given that there are far more blokes around who are Akhtar's height than Kyle Mills' height. In NZ fast bowling seems to be the domain of the tall man. Maybe we're doing it wrong somehow.
I think NZ might be focusing more on bowlers who can generate bounce than raw pace?? Shane Bond was genuinely quick. How tall was he???? He looked shorter than the usual NZ pacer.
 

jeevan

International 12th Man
PCB has nothing to do with it. I think its due to the difference in street cricket that Indian youngsters play and what Pakistanis play. I don't think in India there is a concept of tapeball bowling a lot of my Indian mates played with a rubber ball with more bounce instead of tapeball which bounces less but its lighter so kids try to bowl fast yorkers as much as possible.

Obviously that is not the only reason of good fast bowlers coming out of Pak but it has a lot to do with it. Moreover, after Imran and 2 Ws bowling had become a big focus of youngsters who wanted to play cricket.

In India kids may imitate Sachin, Ganguly, Gavaskar etc. In Pak they try to become like Imran, Akram, Waqar, Akhtar etc. its a mental thing too.
This one post says most of what needs to be said.I had not really even heard of tape bll until CW, and it makes sense on how Pakistani bowlers (compared to any one else, not just Indians) are so adept at bowling yorkers at will.

I think one great missed opportunity for India was in trying to emulate Kapil Dev the all rounder and not Kapil Dev the pace bowler.
 

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