Ponting to drop down the order?

[Ikki]

Is Ponting really in a trough...

Yes, he is.

 

[Jono]

Ponting since 1 July 2008 (roughly 18 months - not including this test)

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Quite clearly a trough. Worse when you count this test.

 

[Rant0r]

Ha, well seeing Marsh batting in ODIs i dont see how you can say he is technically suited to batting in top 3 in tests TBH. He plays around his front pad too much.

Ferguson has alot of M Waugh & Martyn in his batting, which down the line i'd say is potential # 3 stuff. But ATM if he debuts for AUS lets say in the Ashes next summer he would have to bat @ 6.

Neither of whom batted in the top 3

 

[Rant0r]

Ponting since 1 July 2008 (roughly 18 months)

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Quite clearly a trough.

Hmmm, it's worse than I thought actually, although Australia have played in 3 losing series in that time against some of the best bowling in the world. My reasoning that he wasn't in a trough could still stand. The bowling around the world is better.

But then, he could be in a trough, he just doesn't strike me as someone to have a trough, mind you averaging 38 isn't that bad a trough, That could have been a pass park in the 80's and 90's for a batsman

 

[Prince EWS]

Ha, well seeing Marsh batting in ODIs i dont see how you can say he is technically suited to batting in top 3 in tests TBH. He plays around his front pad too much.

So does Ferguson though, actually,

They're remarkably similar really - highly rated players from a young age with a lot of natural ability and good techniques but without that hunger for runs that makes players domestic giants at First Class level who were picked for Australia in ODIs on the back of good List A form and potential and succeeded, only to then be suggested for Test selection despite the lack of consistent First Class runs. They even have the same minor technical flaw.

I like them both as players but I'd really like to see them put together a genuinely good period of Shield performances with some attritional tons before they got picked. If we saw either of them in the team now (pretending Fergo is fit for argument's sake) we'd see a lot of the same frustrating problems we see in the Test team at the moment - good looking starts thrown away, runs only scored when the team is on top, etc etc. They're actually a much more exaggerated version of these problems than the players we already have. What a want to see from there is that hunger for runs - until then I'd rather see Rogers, Hughes, Klinger, Jaques, Dave Hussey etc given a go because despite their faults we know they do have that hunger for runs and they'll make hay when the sun shines. If nothing else it'd send a positive message to the players at Shield level as to what they have to do; picking Ferguson or Marsh would tell the country that what you need to do to get in the team is create hype around yourself, look good at the crease and average mid 30s.

 

[Rant0r]

You mean like when Clarke was picked after averaging 37 in First Class cricket ? He's done ok since then though I suppose.

Rogers surely should be slotted in there somewhere, I know he's a ranga, but he's no Brad Hodge (personality)

 

[aussie]

So does Ferguson though, actually,

They're remarkably similar really - highly rated players from a young age with a lot of natural ability and good techniques but without that hunger for runs that makes players domestic giants at First Class level who were picked for Australia in ODIs on the back of good List A form and potential and succeeded, only to then be suggested for Test selection despite the lack of consistent First Class runs. They even have the same minor technical flaw.

I like them both as players but I'd really like to see them put together a genuinely good period of Shield performances with some attritional tons before they got picked. If we saw either of them in the team now (pretending Fergo is fit for argument's sake) we'd see a lot of the same frustrating problems we see in the Test team at the moment - good looking starts thrown away, runs only scored when the team is on top, etc etc. They're actually a much more exaggerated version of these problems than the players we already have. What a want to see from there is that hunger for runs - until then I'd rather see Rogers, Hughes, Klinger, Jaques, Dave Hussey etc given a go because despite their faults we know they do have that hunger for runs and they'll make hay when the sun shines. If nothing else it'd send a positive message to the players at Shield level as to what they have to do; picking Ferguson or Marsh would tell the country that what you need to do to get in the team is create hype around yourself, look good at the crease and average mid 30s.

Big points here son, AUS clearly dont need more of this ATM..

But i do seem to remember Clarke averaging in his 30 in FC cricket initally. Before Ferguson got a call up, i was always getting the feeling he was a wasted talent at SA since i was hearing about this kid for years. He seemed to have adapted to international cricket very well in his ODIs, thats why i sort of think he could be different..

 

[Prince EWS]

Big points here son, AUS clearly dont need more of this ATM..

But i do seem to remember Clarke averaging in his 30 in FC cricket initally.

Didn't completely agree with Clarke being picked at the time (and let's not forget he was eventually dropped due to his propensity to throw away starts and only recalled when he hit a double hundred for NSW..) but the composition of the team was really a lot different then; there was a lot more security there to just pick a young buck who'd make breathtaking fifties and learn from the experience than there is now.

Before Ferguson got a call up, i was always getting the feeling he was a wasted talent at SA since i was hearing about this kid for years. He seemed to have adapted to international cricket very well in his ODIs, thats why i sort of think he could be different..

Yeah, it's not like Ferguson's been scoring tons in ODIs though - I don't really have any qualms with his ability to handle to the bowling standard as such, but I don't think he's hungry enough to really score big runs. He's well-known for making awesome looking fifties in quick time and then getting out (he's reached fifty 45 times for South Australia and only tonned up 5 times), and while this is actually really useful when you're coming in at six in an ODI, you need more concentration and attitional qualities to make big scores in Tests as brisk fifties just aren't that useful. Even if we pick Rogers, Hughes or Klinger and they happen to fail, it'll send a positive message back to Shield level that what the selectors want from players is hunger for runs and converted starts. Ferguson actually epitomises what's wrong with the batting lineup at the moment (other than North who annoyingly has the opposite problem to the nth degree).

 

[aussie]

Agreed 100% PEWS & i believe thats a first ha..

 

[aussie]

Ponting since 1 July 2008 (roughly 18 months - not including this test)

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Quite clearly a trough. Worse when you count this test.

No offence, but this is where i feel some slight stats picking is involved. Why have you chosen 1 July 2008 as a starting point to suggesting where Ponting's form began to drop off?. Was he showing anything specific after the AUS tour to WI ATT ie being exposed technically like what happened to Gilchrist in Ashes 05 for one to say..."yes Ponting has hit a wall"?.

I'd have to say no. This is why overall i dont believe Ponting is a real decline since he really hasn't been looking out of form since SRI/IND 07/08, still looks excellent but just getting when he normally would push on to a BIG score. Probably just age i'd say...

 

[Furball]

That innings against WI doesn't really mean that mucch. Only 12 months ago he also almost scored twin tons against South Africa at the MCG.

The point is that over the last 18 months he's barely averaging over 40. A few good knocks here and there are incredibly entertaining, but he's been ordinary for some time now.

He's averaged 42 since the 06/07 Ashes.

That's 2 years of Test cricket, not a wee patch of iffy form.

 

[BoyBrumby]

If Australia didn't have the (daft, IMHO) aversion to their ex-test skippers playing on once they've abdicated I'd say the best thing Ponting could do is give away the captaincy and concentrate on his batting.

It's no secret Oz are on the slide, so who knows how the added pressure is affecting his form?

 

[Sir Alex]

edited

 

[Jono]

No offence, but this is where i feel some slight stats picking is involved. Why have you chosen 1 July 2008 as a starting point to suggesting where Ponting's form began to drop off?. Was he showing anything specific after the AUS tour to WI ATT ie being exposed technically like what happened to Gilchrist in Ashes 05 for one to say..."yes Ponting has hit a wall"?.

I'd have to say no. This is why overall i dont believe Ponting is a real decline since he really hasn't been looking out of form since SRI/IND 07/08, still looks excellent but just getting when he normally would push on to a BIG score. Probably just age i'd say...

I actually first did 2 years and he was averaging 41.

2 years is a significant length of time.

Eventually you have to accept Ponting may be in decline aussie.

 

[aussie]

I actually first did 2 years and he was averaging 41.

2 years is a significant length of time.

Eventually you have to accept Ponting may be in decline aussie.

I'd agree he no longer the Ponting of Headingley 2001 to Sydney 2007., in which he was at his ULTIMATE peak as batsman (although he had bad 2004 which coincidentally was his first year as skipper).

But i dont believe he a great batsman in decline. Decline is VERY strong word my friend. A great batsman in decline should show:

- Being exposed technically (i.e getting out one way all the time)
- Footwork & reflexes slowing down
- Execution of trademark shots being reduced (eg Ponting not playing his pull shot well)

If he was then one can say without a shadow of doubt the Ponting was in sure decline. A dimishing great batsman showing those faults was Viv Richards in the last 2-3 years (in the late 80s & early 90s) of his career or Tendulkar from WI 02 to PAK 07/08 - not Ponting currently at all.

Those are the keys areas. The most you can say about the last two years since Ashes 06/07 is that he hasn't got some big runs due to very marginal factor. Ponting's batting againts Steyn in super form @ Melbourne last summer was a good as anything he has been doing between 2001 to 2006/07.

 

[TT Boy]

I'd agree he no longer the Ponting of Headingley 2001 to Sydney 2007., in which he was at his ULTIMATE peak as batsman (although he had bad 2004 which coincidentally was his first year as skipper).

But i dont believe he a great batsman in decline. Decline is VERY strong word my friend. A great batsman in decline should show:

- Being exposed technically (i.e getting out one way all the time)
- Footwork & reflexes slowing down
- Execution of trademark shots being reduced (eg Ponting not playing his pull shot well)

Well he is dropping sitters in the field and pulling the ball down the fielders throat.

 

[Shri]

- Being exposed technically (i.e getting out one way all the time)
- Footwork & reflexes slowing down
- Execution of trademark shots being reduced (eg Ponting not playing his pull shot well)

- He gets out after getting starts and so (imo)gets out one way all the time.
- Visible these days with Roach hitting him with a bouncer.(imo)
- He has started to get out playing the pull shot frequently.(imo)

With all that being said, he still is a great player. Should play for another 2 years at least.

 

[aussie]

Well he is dropping sitters in the field and pulling the ball down the fielders throat.

The last two pull shot dismissals of Aamer & Sami was more of his ego taking over rather than it becoming a technical issue.

 

[Shri]

 

[aussie]

- He gets out after getting starts and so (imo)gets out one way all the time.

When i saw being technically exposed i would say something like what happened to Gilchrist after Ashes 05. When Flintoff exposed a technical flaw by bowling around the wicket to him, that bowlers continued to expose in the last days of Gilly's career.

None of that has happened to Ponting in recent years. Him no going on after starts is just a sign of maybe age & that he is past his "ultimate peak". In the first test of the summer vs WI @ Brisbane, Ponting was looking brillaint in his 55, before Roach got him with a ball that would get most top batsmen out.

- Visible the days with Roach hitting him with a bouncer.(imo)

Nah Ponting was hit by Harmison in Ashes 05. Akhtar @ Perth 04 & i believe by Ntini in SA 06. As i've said before Roach should be given credit for troubling Ponting with the short ball, rather than it being seen as a sign that Ponting reflex is slowing down.

- He has started to get out playing the pull shot frequently.(imo)

Its not that he is getting out to it, its how he is getting out to it. If he was trying to pull & getting caught at mid-wicket or mid-on or something. Then you can say there is problem & his timing is gone. As i said before his last two dismissals to the pull of Amaer & Sami where due to his ego taking over..

With all that being said, he still is a great player. Should play for another 2 years at least.

Yea i'd hope he gets to complete his wish & last until Ashes 2013 in ENG & win a series as skipper.